Intellectual Integrity

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

beeblebrox wrote:
danieLion wrote:In the "theological" or religious studies realm, you'll find a much less primitive and much more sophisticated understanding of "spirituality" in Aleister Crowley's works, Joseph Campbell's works, Robert Anton Wilson's works, and in the field of cultural anthropology.
Aleister Crowley, really?

:anjali:
Really.

You got a problem with AC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet your understanding of AC is based on propaganda you've heard about it him instead of a personal, intellectually integral inquiry into his teachings.
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

Cittasanto wrote:and how do you come to those conclusions?
danieLion wrote:they're not conclusions
Cittasanto wrote:Then what are they? has your reasoning not ended up with this at this point?
This has all been thoroughly addressed in my repsones to polarbuddha101's questions.

To summarize: crtical thinking for the sake of intellectual integrity is not about "coming to conclusions" or "ending up at a point." "Truth" serves no definitive, absolute, ultimate telos. It's not something "out there" waiting to be discovered.
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Mr Man
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:It only lacks intellectual integrity when you put it in the wrong context.
Contexts are neither wrong nor right.
Of course context can be wrong. The intellect is not the ground for understanding (in the case of dhamma).
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SDC
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by SDC »

beeblebrox wrote:Aleister Crowley, really?

:anjali:
I do not know very much about Crowley, but I give him a hell of a lot of credit, as I do many others from his era in the west, for having the guts to think outside the box when there really wasn't much there to work with. Maybe he went to the extreme, but there is definitely something there to respect...in my opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?

EDIT - Sorry for the off topic post

EDIT #2 - Posted here due to moderator note
beeblebrox wrote:
SDC wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Aleister Crowley, really?
I do not know very much about Crowley, but I give him a hell of a lot of credit, as I do many others from his era in the west, for having the guts to think outside the box when there really wasn't much there to work with. Maybe he went to the extreme, but there is definitely something there to respect...in my opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?

EDIT - Sorry for the off topic post
I think it's in the practice, not words...

Daniel made a claim that Aleister made a more sophisticated treatment on the spirituality than the Buddha did.

:anjali:
Ooooooh, now I get what you meant. You are on your own with that one, Daniel.
Last edited by SDC on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Cittasanto
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by Cittasanto »

then I shall simply refer you back to my previous post.
Buddhism is whatever....
danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:and how do you come to those conclusions?
danieLion wrote:they're not conclusions
Cittasanto wrote:Then what are they? has your reasoning not ended up with this at this point?
This has all been thoroughly addressed in my repsones to polarbuddha101's questions.

To summarize: crtical thinking for the sake of intellectual integrity is not about "coming to conclusions" or "ending up at a point." "Truth" serves no definitive, absolute, ultimate telos. It's not something "out there" waiting to be discovered.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

Mr Man wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:It only lacks intellectual integrity when you put it in the wrong context.
Contexts are neither wrong nor right.
Of course context can be wrong. The intellect is not the ground for understanding (in the case of dhamma).
Contexts are either effective or ineffective, and their pragmatic value is entirley dependent upon one's purposes, aims and goals. The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual. There's no way he would've had so many profound things to say about the dhamma if he'd not grounded his pursuit of understanding it in his intellect.
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

Cittasanto wrote:then I shall simply refer you back to my previous post.
Buddhism is whatever....
danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:and how do you come to those conclusions?
danieLion wrote:they're not conclusions
Cittasanto wrote:Then what are they? has your reasoning not ended up with this at this point?
This has all been thoroughly addressed in my repsones to polarbuddha101's questions.

To summarize: crtical thinking for the sake of intellectual integrity is not about "coming to conclusions" or "ending up at a point." "Truth" serves no definitive, absolute, ultimate telos. It's not something "out there" waiting to be discovered.
Huh?
beeblebrox
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by beeblebrox »

SDC wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Aleister Crowley, really?
I do not know very much about Crowley, but I give him a hell of a lot of credit, as I do many others from his era in the west, for having the guts to think outside the box when there really wasn't much there to work with. Maybe he went to the extreme, but there is definitely something there to respect...in my opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?

EDIT - Sorry for the off topic post
I think it's in the practice, not words...

Daniel made a claim that Aleister made a more sophisticated treatment on the spirituality than the Buddha did.

:anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

SDC wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?
Yes. Crowley attributed his success with jhana, for instance, to his friend Allan Bennett's (a.k.a. Bhikkhu Ananda Metteyya's) instruction. He met him in The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Ananda Metteyya founded (in 1903) the Buddhasasana Samagama or the International Buddhist Society in London, UK (not to be confused with the International Buddhist Society in British Columbia, Canada). Bennett later began a periodical called Buddhism: An Illustrated Review.

See also:

The Meditations of Allan Bennett

The Bhikkhu and the Magus

Bennett's THE RELIGION OF BURMA AND OTHER PAPERS

The Influence of Buddhism on Aleister Crowley

Allan Bennett Theravada Monk and Pioneer Publisher

Buddhist Influence on Aleister Crowley

You will also find accountings of their relationship in Crowley's autohagiography, Confesssions, and in Richard Kaczynski's exhaustively researched and impeccably documented Perdurabo: The Life of Aleister Crowley.
beeblebrox
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by beeblebrox »

danieLion wrote:
Aleister Crowley, really?
Really.

You got a problem with AC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet your understanding of AC is based on propaganda you've heard about it him instead of a personal, intellectually integral inquiry into his teachings.
In case you hadn't noticed, I passed the mark of the beast a few posts ago... you did also apparently, way ahead of me. :)

:anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

beeblebrox wrote:Daniel made a claim that Aleister made a more sophisticated treatment on the spirituality than the Buddha did.
Correct. However, I made this claim with several individuals, not just AC. AC demonstated ambivalence towards the teachings of the Buddha throughout his life. However, I can think of no one relgious figure that he showed more deference to than the Buddha. He found it a matter of intellectual integrity to include the aspects of Buddhism he found valid in his "system".
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

beeblebrox wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Aleister Crowley, really?
Really.

You got a problem with AC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet your understanding of AC is based on propaganda you've heard about it him instead of a personal, intellectually integral inquiry into his teachings.
In case you hadn't noticed, I passed the mark of the beast a few posts ago... you did also apparently, way ahead of me. :)

:anjali:
Crowley said the main reason he jokingly referred to himself as "The Beast" was because that's what his mother used to call him. :lol:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by tiltbillings »

Back to the topic, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by Mr Man »

Mr Man wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Of course context can be wrong. The intellect is not the ground for understanding (in the case of dhamma).
Contexts are either effective or ineffective, and their pragmatic value is entirley dependent upon one's purposes, aims and goals. The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual. There's no way he would've had so many profound things to say about the dhamma if he'd not grounded his pursuit of understanding it in his intellect.
Well if I am remembering correctly you have been rather skeptical about the historical accuracy of the Buddha story so the personalization here seems rather odd. I don't agree that "The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual". I don't think that there was a even a "pursuit of understanding" (intellectual).
danieLion
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Re: Intellectual Integrity

Post by danieLion »

Mr Man wrote:...the historical accuracy of the Buddha story...
Do you see the contradiction in this phrase?
Mr Man wrote:...so the personalization here seems rather odd.
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Who's "personilization"? How, exactly, does it appear "odd" to you?
Mr Man wrote:I don't agree that "The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual".
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Do you think he just sat around stopping his thoughts until he experienced nibbana? How would he even know how to direct his Views, Intentions, Speech, Actions, Livelihood, Efforts, Mindfulness and Concentration without his intellect?
Mr Man wrote:I don't think that there was a even a "pursuit of understanding" (intellectual).
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. How could he pursue Right View and Right Effort without his intellect?
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