Except the problem is that the "causes of wisdom" as being advocated by robertk in this thread violates the TOS: "There are a broad spectrum of approaches to, and interpretations of, the Dhamma. Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style ," and sitting meditation is worth the defense.retrofuturist wrote:
The topic, and forum in general, needn't always be framed as a relentless defense of sitting meditation and people's chosen practices (as it has been for much of the last 18 pages of discussion).
The causes for wisdom
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
Paul, I am probably not in the mood for your sense of humour but people were discussing rites and ritual - so why the seemingly smartarse comment?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Well actually, the topic is about "the causes for wisdom".Dan74 wrote:In a sense what you term rites and rituals can serve as a bridge between meditation and "everyday life" in that it is easier to bring a spacious clarity of meditation into a well-rehearsed activity like that than to face the "darts and arrows" in the same spirit.
Of course there are many other good reasons for performing them too. But since we are on the subject of meditation...
And here you go!retrofuturist wrote: Since "attachment to rites and rituals" (as compared to say, "absence of meditation") is one of the three fetters that binds us to avijja (ignorance) and prevents stream-entry, possibly it's a more important (and less beaten to death) subject of discussion on a topic addressing "the causes for wisdom".
If someone is performing a ritual, does it mean (s)he is attached? And if so, could it still be useful before stream-entry?
A long time ago I was debating with Tilt, unable to understand his seemingly vehement attack on Mahayana sectarianism and particularly the term "Hinayana". Then he shared that due to this sectarian propaganda, to effectively slander, the avenue of exploring Theravada remained closed to him for some time. In essence he was denied an opportunity to explore this amazing tradition. A travesty, wouldn't you agree?The topic, and forum in general, needn't always be framed as a relentless defense of sitting meditation and people's chosen practices (as it has been for much of the last 18 pages of discussion).
Metta,
Retro.
I think all ill-informed attacks on a tradition, a lineage or practice, do precisely that - misinform and deny people an opportunity to explore through slander. I am not defensive about my chosen practice - you are reading me entirely wrong. After 10 years I am completely at home with it. Any inadequacies are my own. But I think it is a good idea to correct misinformation and sectarianism when we see it. I try to do the same within my chosen tradition too.
_/|\_
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
The "rules and ritual" business was brought by robertk as a defense of his wholesale rejection of sitting meditation practice.Dan74 wrote:Paul, I am probably not in the mood for your sense of humour but people were discussing rites and ritual - so why the seemingly smartarse comment?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Well actually, the topic is about "the causes for wisdom".Dan74 wrote:In a sense what you term rites and rituals can serve as a bridge between meditation and "everyday life" in that it is easier to bring a spacious clarity of meditation into a well-rehearsed activity like that than to face the "darts and arrows" in the same spirit.
Of course there are many other good reasons for performing them too. But since we are on the subject of meditation...
Also, as has been mentioned above in response to robertk's comments, even if someone starts out the sitting practice with the hindrance of "rules and rituals," that does not mean they are going to be forever stuck there. Insight into what binds is part of the natural unfolding of practice. It is why one does sitting meditation practice.And here you go!retrofuturist wrote: Since "attachment to rites and rituals" (as compared to say, "absence of meditation") is one of the three fetters that binds us to avijja (ignorance) and prevents stream-entry, possibly it's a more important (and less beaten to death) subject of discussion on a topic addressing "the causes for wisdom".
If someone is performing a ritual, does it mean (s)he is attached? And if so, could it still be useful before stream-entry?
:
Dan wrote:A long time ago I was debating with Tilt, unable to understand his seemingly vehement attack on Mahayana sectarianism and particularly the term "Hinayana". Then he shared that due to this sectarian propaganda, to effectively slander, the avenue of exploring Theravada remained closed to him for some time. In essence he was denied an opportunity to explore this amazing tradition. A travesty, wouldn't you agree?retro wrote: The topic, and forum in general, needn't always be framed as a relentless defense of sitting meditation and people's chosen practices (as it has been for much of the last 18 pages of discussion).
I think all ill-informed attacks on a tradition, a lineage or practice, do precisely that - misinform and deny people an opportunity to explore through slander. I am not defensive about my chosen practice - you are reading me entirely wrong. After 10 years I am completely at home with it. Any inadequacies are my own. But I think it is a good idea to correct misinformation and sectarianism when we see it. I try to do the same within my chosen tradition too.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: The causes for wisdom
Greetings Dan,
Metta,
Retro.
Nice to see the word "seemingly" there as it demonstrates that what you said reflects your own perception. There was no humour or smart-arsery intended - merely a statement of fact. This topic is titled "The causes for wisdom" and that is what it is about.Dan74 wrote:Paul, I am probably not in the mood for your sense of humour but people were discussing rites and ritual - so why the seemingly smartarse comment?
Not all people are like Tilt.Dan74 wrote:A long time ago I was debating with Tilt, unable to understand his seemingly vehement attack on Mahayana sectarianism and particularly the term "Hinayana". Then he shared that due to this sectarian propaganda, to effectively slander, the avenue of exploring Theravada remained closed to him for some time. In essence he was denied an opportunity to explore this amazing tradition. A travesty, wouldn't you agree?
A good question, pertinent to the topic... perhaps someone will take it up?Dan74 wrote:If someone is performing a ritual, does it mean (s)he is attached? And if so, could it still be useful before stream-entry?
That's all fine, but that's not how I've interpreted the words from Robert and likeminded individuals in this topic. From what I recall of their postings throughout the topic, they have been very careful to clarify that it's the view underlying what is done that is the significant factor underlying the efficacy of action, and not the corresponding movements and configurations of rupa. In other words, it's "sitting-neutral".Dan74 wrote:I think all ill-informed attacks on a tradition, a lineage or practice, do precisely that - misinform and deny people an opportunity to explore through slander.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
It may be worth going back through this thread and play back the words used by robertk, Virgo, and dhamma follower in relation to sitting practice and how sitting practice has been portrayed in this thread. I don't see anything "sitting-neutral" about it all.retrofuturist wrote:That's all fine, but that's not how I've interpreted the words from Robert and likeminded individuals in this topic. From what I recall of their postings throughout the topic, they have been very careful to clarify that it's the view underlying what is done that is the significant factor underlying the efficacy of action, and not the corresponding movements and configurations of rupa. In other words, it's "sitting-neutral".
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: The causes for wisdom
Greetings Tilt,
It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?
Metta,
Retro.
It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
Look at robertk's msgs here:retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?
Metta,
Retro.
From the OP: But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. -- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 52#p227969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta. -- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p228081" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.
It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.
Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter. -- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He is not making any distinction between "right" and "wrong" practice that are at obvious or even implied. It seems to be from robertk's standpoint sitting meditation, thinking that it will help develop wisdom, is all wrong view, so those of us here who are finding some difficulty with what is being said here can be excused in light of these sort of comments.What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa. -- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p228690" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, let us see what they have to say and in what context. As it stands now, at best the Sujin followers are being highly unskillful in their presentation of the Sujin criticism of sitting meditation, since it is coming across, to borrow a phrase from the TOS, as "a wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style."It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
Also, it is worth adding that the characterization of meditation by the Sujin followers here and as seen in Nina Van G's linked interview is highly problematic in how sitting meditation is portrayed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
Eight causes of wisdom in the Buddha's words:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha is not saying only listening and consideration of Dhamma are the causes of wisdom; there are others too which need intentional effort.
1. Having a teacher
2. Hearing the Dhamma
3. Seclusion
4. Virtue
5. Well penetration in terms of views
6. Abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities
7. Not talking about variety of things except Dhamma, and noble silence
8. Focusing on arising and passing away
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha is not saying only listening and consideration of Dhamma are the causes of wisdom; there are others too which need intentional effort.
1. Having a teacher
2. Hearing the Dhamma
3. Seclusion
4. Virtue
5. Well penetration in terms of views
6. Abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities
7. Not talking about variety of things except Dhamma, and noble silence
8. Focusing on arising and passing away
Re: The causes for wisdom
Hi retro. If I am sitting , and as I happen to be doing now, and cittas associated with wisdom arise (nana-sampayutta) then that is "right ' And if the same type of cittas arise while stamding, while walking . Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?
Metta,
Retro.
It is a little different for samathha where for some objects like breath a stable lotus like posture with erect back allowing for long periods without changing posture: but even for samathha the main factor is the type of wisdom that can let go of even subtle wrong concentration. Not easy.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: The causes for wisdom
Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.
Metta,
Retro.
And sounds "sitting-neutral" too...robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: The causes for wisdom
Thanks for picking up this key point, and for the new phrase.retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.
And sound "sitting-neutral" too...robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.
Metta,
Retro.
You have a skillful way with words!
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
Sitting. I assume that you saying that you are sitting at your desk with computer, but that is not quite what we are talking about, is it? You really have not answered the question, unless you are saying that your comments about sitting meditation here http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 61#p230741" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are flatly wrong. You might want to be a little more clear?robertk wrote:Hi retro. If I am sitting , and as I happen to be doing now, and cittas associated with wisdom arise (nana-sampayutta) then that is "right ' And if the same type of cittas arise while stamding, while walking . Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".
If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?
Metta,
Retro.
It is a little different for samathha where for some objects like breath a stable lotus like posture with erect back allowing for long periods without changing posture: but even for samathha the main factor is the type of wisdom that can let go of even subtle wrong concentration. Not easy.
Have you changed your mind about sitting meditation, or are you going to stand by the thing you said in the msg?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Polar Bear
- Posts: 1348
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
Going back to here, I was in school otherwise I would have replied sooner. The first part I suppose I can agree with although I'm not sure I would call bowing to statues and burning incense really part of everyday life as much as working, or going to school, talking to people, etc. are.Dan74 wrote:[
In a sense what you term rites and rituals can serve as a bridge between meditation and "everyday life" in that it is easier to bring a spacious clarity of meditation into a well-rehearsed activity like that than to face the "darts and arrows" in the same spirit.
Of course there are many other good reasons for performing them too. But since we are on the subject of meditation...
Also, just curious. What are the other good reasons for performing rites and rituals? I also just want to reiterate, I am not utterly opposed to them, I just think they're generally superfluous and not something the Buddha advocated. When I go to a Wat, I bow to the Buddha statue, when I was at a Wat on Vesak, I burned incense and circumambulated the building. But I just do it to be respectful, not because I see any inherent value in doing so.
Edit: This post seems a bit harsh in retrospect, I do have to admit that rites and rituals can serve as a springboard towards cultivating wholesome qualities. I think of this sutta:
"If, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities grow and skillful qualities wane, then I tell you that that sort of observance is not to be observed. But if, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities wane and skillful qualities grow, then I tell you that that sort of observance is to be observed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
It is totally unclear, in light of these comments -- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 61#p230741" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- that you are at all neutral about sitting meditation as it generally understood here.robertk wrote:Thanks for picking up this key point, and for the new phrase.retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.
And sound "sitting-neutral" too...robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.
Metta,
Retro.
You have a skillful way with words!
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723