The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?
Sorry, a little earlier in this thread you and sylvester had a conversation:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:

I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.
Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:59 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And, of course, no teacher I know of would disagree with that.

But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.

:anjali:
Mike

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daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:05 pm

AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:06 pm

robertk wrote:
Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.
Sure, but the reality is, of course, that greed, hatred, and delusion only come fully to an end with full awakening. In the meantime this is stuff which we have to deal with, even as an ariya shy of full awakening, which is why there is sila and bhāvanā as well as study.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:09 pm

daverupa wrote:
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
Brilliant. That deserves a lengthy discussion. This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:46 pm

Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:02 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?
It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:11 pm

Mr Man wrote:
It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.
That was helpful. Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:08 pm

daverupa wrote:
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
:clap:
Cannot possibly be more clear than this.
AN 4.159 wrote:"This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.

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Polar Bear
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:27 pm

robertk wrote:Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."
Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.
I'm not sure you have the proper definition of rules and observances. Bowing to statues, using incense, chanting in a dead language, these are rules and observances, rites and rituals, but watching the breath and other forms of meditation are not rituals, they are training methods and there is a big difference.
robertk: There are four types of clinging
(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and
rituals, and lastly self view clinging.
Actually, it is not just clinging to wrong views that must be abandoned but clinging to all views, even right view must be let go of:
"Monks, if you were to adhere to this view — so pure, so bright — if you were to cherish it, treasure it, regard it as 'mine,' would you understand the Dhamma taught as analogous to a raft,[4] for crossing over, not for holding on to?"

"No, lord."

"If you were not to adhere to this view — so pure, so bright — if you were to not to cherish it, not to treasure it, not to regard it as 'mine,' would you understand the Dhamma taught as analogous to a raft, for crossing over, not for holding on to?"

"Yes, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:03 pm

Greetings,
polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not sure you have the proper definition of rules and observances. Bowing to statues, using incense, chanting in a dead language, these are rules and observances, rites and rituals, but watching the breath and other forms of meditation are not rituals, they are training methods and there is a big difference.
Regarded purely on the physical level, these are just physical manifestations of movement - no more or less significant than the last.

Therefore, whatever it is that could be used to differentiate them into two discrete classes - "rites and rituals" and "training methods" - is unlikely to be physical either...

So what precisely is the differentiation between "rites and rituals" and "training methods"? Is it defined in the suttas or commentaries, or is it a modern distinction?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Polar Bear
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:21 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not sure you have the proper definition of rules and observances. Bowing to statues, using incense, chanting in a dead language, these are rules and observances, rites and rituals, but watching the breath and other forms of meditation are not rituals, they are training methods and there is a big difference.
Regarded purely on the physical level, these are just physical manifestations of movement - no more or less significant than the last.

Therefore, whatever it is that could be used to differentiate them into two discrete classes - "rites and rituals" and "training methods" - is unlikely to be physical either...

So what precisely is the differentiation between "rites and rituals" and "training methods"? Is it defined in the suttas or commentaries, or is it a modern distinction?

Metta,
Retro. :)
I'm just going off my understanding of language, society, what's actually useful and what's superfluous for the most part. But here is this part of a sutta:
"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you return to the observances, grand ceremonies, & auspicious rites of common contemplatives & brahmans as having any essence?"

"No, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Meditation is training to cultivate skillful qualities and need not be accompanied by superfluous actions such as using incense etc.; not that I'm outright dismissing such a thing just that it is unnecessary (empty of anything essential) and not something to be attached to.

EDIT: I do think the Buddha would be a bit displeased with the observances, grand ceremonies, and auspicious rites that have sprang up around the practice of his teachings but that's the way of the world, it was inevitable.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:26 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Meditation is training to cultivate skillful qualities and need not be accompanied by superfluous actions such as using incense etc.; not that I'm outright dismissing such a thing just that it is unnecessary (empty of anything essential) and not something to be attached to.
I think it is fairly easy for (formal) meditation to become empty of anything essential and also somthing that we are attached to. And it is also possible for "rites and rituals" to be a ground for cultivating skillful qualities. It's more about what we bring to these activities and intention. To reassess is a good thing.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:43 pm

Mr Man wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
Meditation is training to cultivate skillful qualities and need not be accompanied by superfluous actions such as using incense etc.; not that I'm outright dismissing such a thing just that it is unnecessary (empty of anything essential) and not something to be attached to.
I think it is fairly easy for (formal) meditation to become empty of anything essential and also somthing that we are attached to. And it is also possible for "rites and rituals" to be a ground for cultivating skillful qualities. It's more about what we bring to these activities and intention. To reassess is a good thing.
I basically agree. But the difference being that meditation is the explicit act of or attempt at cultivating skillful qualities and abandoning unskillful ones whereas rites and rituals function as such only insofar as one undertakes them with a meditative mindset or wholesome mind state and without wrong views about what they can accomplish.

I'm not trying to say that buddhist rites and rituals should be eradicated either, I don't even think that's possible anyway, I'm just saying that they're unnecessary and weren't undertaken in the time of the Buddha as far as I know. The rites and rituals that grew up around the vast wealth that is the buddha's teaching is comparable to a pinch of salt in the river ganges, I'll gladly drink the water.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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