Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

Bubbabuddhist, that was a great story! 8-)
You have a talent to write...are you using it...?

Thinking about Morphine....my fate could have easily taken another course... :thinking:

In my small town, back in the days where you'd listen to the Stones and friends, and witness Jimi and Janis walk away from us, I grew up sheltered, BUT so close to abysses, in hindsight I am shocked...

There was this guy who looked like Mick Jagger and was sooo charming all he needed to do was smile and the little bees (girls) would fly around him and feel entranced.

I'd sit in the youth center (where all the teens met and listened to music and smoked their first cigarettes) , I'd drink a coke and shyly look around, and he would walk in and be Mr. Hip(pie) and be so cool we all wanted his attention.

One day, I got his attention....he walked over to me and we were soon talking like friends. I felt soo flattered that he had noticed me at all, and after all, wasn't that what I'd dreamt of? He was so much older, and could have had all the older girls, he couldn't be seriously interested in a thin, freckled teen with braces, could he....?

Well...he steered the conversation into asking me about my Dad's practice and stuff and finally after he felt confident I had swallowed his rap hook line and sinker he asked me if I knew where my father kept his ampullae and so forth...and if I knew where the key was... asked if there was any Morphine, said the name, I recognized it...

And he casually asked me if I'd steal one ...or more...and give it to him and he'd give me a lot of money for each. I mean a LOT, for my understanding.

It would have been easy for me and it would have never gotten cleared up who took it, if it had been noticed at all, I just didn't know. Maybe staff would have been questioned and my Dad would have believed he'd used it and forgotten about it...

But I could not bear the idea of lying to my father, of betraying his trust like this, of being disloyal to the most loyal friend I ever had...and of being a possible target of blackmail thereafter....

So I slowly told my Mr. Dealer, I could not do it and we parted on friendly terms...

But imagine what might have become of me if I had...?

I dare not think about it, but Mr. Hip served time in jail later...

Strange, when I think about it, I always moved in musician circles and witnessed a lot of drug consumption...




My drug is chocolate.... :lol: how good it's legal!!!! :rofl:
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Thank you annapurna. if you're curious about my literary output peruse amazon.com and look up my nom-de-plume Jon Saint Germain.
BB
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Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

Thank you! :smile:

I have read books about this before, but not with a karma aspect. Hope I have enough money soon to buy one!

Do you also describe mixed hands?

Because mine seem a mix of all....

And say Hi to Checkers for me....I had a July and a Jeannie. Loved them like my own children.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by marc108 »

Radman622 wrote:I am wondering if from a certain perspective, one might see this as trying to "dodge Karma" by diminishing or not experiencing the pain. If perhaps, you are trading the Karmic consequence of the headache or what have you for a different consequence, and in so doing, "delaying" bad Karma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part1-b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unlike the theory of linear causality — which led the Vedists and Jains to see the relationship between an act and its result as predictable and tit-for-tat — the principle of this/that conditionality makes that relationship inherently complex. The results of kamma experienced at any one point in time come not only from past kamma, but also from present kamma. This means that, although there are general patterns relating habitual acts to corresponding results [§9], there is no set one-for-one, tit-for-tat, relationship between a particular action and its results. Instead, the results are determined by the context of the act, both in terms of actions that preceded or followed it [§11] and in terms one's state of mind at the time of acting or experiencing the result [§13]. As we noted in the Introduction, the feedback loops inherent in this/that conditionality mean that the working out of any particular cause-effect relationship can be very complex indeed.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Radman622 »

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful and contemplative responses. :) I noted a few of you were saying you were having a bit of difficulty with English - if anyone would like, I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with this, since I am a native English speaker.

That was my understanding too, that Kamma is not so... linear is people like to make it seem, but I was interested in the perspectives everyone would have. So far the best argument against taking them (of your own will, of course) is the argument of disrupted mindfulness, but I think it's also true that pain can interfere with mindfulness, and that there is nothing we can do about pain.

From my readings in Buddhist philosophy, pain =/= suffering. Pain is physical and suffering is mental. Pain can cause suffering, but only if you allow it to, and even pleasure can cause suffering.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by theY »

^

Thank you! :anjali:

We can modify everything of some vipaaka before they arising status will be stable, may at arising moment or before that.

But, the most of native buddhist country didn't act like that, they try to living follow vipaaka, more than kamma, love effects but hat to do their cause.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by mikenz66 »

Members,

Please note the TOS guidelines on mental illness.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Direct advice on treatments are not permitted.

:anjali:
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Radman622
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Radman622 »

Oh! Mikenz, it didn't occur to me! I apologize. I will add a disclaimer to my original post if that would be acceptable. :)
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Radman,

My comment was not directed at you, it was referring to a post that has been deleted. As explained here discussing the pros and cons of various treatments is fine. It is specific medical advice to members who are suffering from serious conditions that is not allowed.

:anjali:
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Radman622
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Radman622 »

Oh, well it's good to know that I was not breaking the rules accidentally, as this was not my intention. Thanks for clarifying. :)
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InfiniteSummer
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by InfiniteSummer »

My experience...
I take an anti-depressant and mood stabilizer & have been on this regimen for the last two years. When I first started, it felt like night and day. The meds lifted me out of the apathetic gloomy haze of depression I'd been stuck in for over a decade. It's kept the depression at bay and I'm very grateful that I found the right cocktail for me. If I get lazy with my regimen, my mood dips within a few days and I start to see the effects in my daily life.

In the time that I've been medicated, I've purged my life of unhealthy relationships, got in a 12-step program which rejuvenated me spiritually, started really working deeply with my therapist, got a job that I like quite a bit & got promoted, sat two 10-day courses, and committed myself to The Path. More or less in that order.

I may have gotten to this point eventually but there's little doubt in my mind that it would have taken a lot longer. And that I might have been dead before it happened. No exaggeration.

At my last retreat, I got severe anxiety during deep meditation and my AT prescribed a meditation technique and sent me to my room. It worked and staved off a panic attack which is great because I'd left my anti-anxiety meds at home. :tongue:
Anyway she later told me to take prescribed meds if I needed to because that is what they were prescribed for. No big deal and it doesn't reflect on my discipline.

So here's my take on this debate. If medication is taken with the right volition (vs. abusing medication for instance) and if it aids in developing dhamma and one's practice, it is all good.

IMHO, the beauty of Dhamma is its universality. Sila is universal, samadhi is universal, panna is universal; all three are no-brainers if one is aware. Dhamma is grounded in practicality, not in dogma.

So the middle path may be to do what you need to do in order to develop in Dhamma. True, a fully enlightened being wouldn't be rocked by psychosomatic stuffs but in my case it's a long walk before I hit that point. Along the way, I'm going to use whatever tools I have been gracefully given (including 12-step, meditation, and therapy) to get there.

There may be a day when I can feel this normal without my meds but if I'm in it for life, that's cool too. They help me stay balanced so I can focus on my top priorities. Helps me cultivate samadhi, check. Keeps energy/life/connectedness-sucking depression at bay, check. Allows me to get out of bed so I can meditate and go to work, check. Makes me a non-liability for ten-day retreats, check. That can't be a bad thing.

As for the pain-killer thing, is the loving action to give balm to a feverish child / AIDS or cancer patient / someone suffering severe pain? Or to tell them to observe bodily sensation and detach?

Maybe the most loving thing would be to leave the choice to them. This applies to anyone who has chosen to take refuge in Buddha as well.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by ChrisN82 »

I am sort of new to buddhism and thinking about it, but most of it appeals to me greatly.

I had wondered about painkillers, and have read this thread and found it very interesting.

I have hurt my back, which is extremely painful and I don't think it is caused by bad karma but rather by a lot of bending and heavy lifting at work.

I have been given co-codamol by my doctor and have been told to take it for the next 6 weeks or so until I get a physio to hopefully sort it.
I am also on light duties.

I am a bit dubious about taking it because :-

1. Pain is there for a reason, If I am feeling it at work then I am probably doing something which will make my back worse and should stop it. If I wasn't feeling the pain then I would not be aware of this.

2. It s an opiate and makes me a bit spaced out, This seems to be against the Buddha's teachings because it stops the mind being clear.

Although there have been a few occasions where the pain has made me feel very nauseous, also I have a family to support and so I need to be able to do my job. If I am off sick I do not get paid and cannot support my family.

Also, If I lost my job. I would be on benefits and other people would have to work to support me. Which would not be fair on them.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by philosopher »

Hi everyone,

I did not completely read all the replies, but only skimmed them, so please excuse me if I am repeating something that's already been said before.

I've not done any formal study of the scriptures, but intuitively I feel that our mutual goal is to reduce our suffering. With that in mind, I think it can be fruitful to try to learn to "hold" physical or emotional pain and notice it as a part of life, transitory sensations that come and go. That being said, I believe that we have varying degrees of tolerance for pain at different moments and stages of our lives. If the pain - emotional or physical - is leading to despair which gets in the way of continuing with one's practice (whatever that entails - formal meditation, reading, etc) then it seems to me it would be more effective to take the minimum effective dose and "strive on," as heedfully as possible. :)

I have struggled with severe physical pain and mood disorders my entire life, but I have resisted taking antidepressants in favor of observing how diet, exercise, sleep, the environment, etc affects my moods, as well as going through psychotherapy which I have found to be incredible helpful, especially if you work with a therapist who uses a method based on acceptance, such as dialectical behavior therapy (which is based on many Zen principles) or good psychoanalytic work. For my physical pain, I occasionally use painkillers if the pain is becoming "overwhelming" (subjectively, of course) and I have exhausted all my other strategies for enduring it. I try to be as mindful as possible during the process of deciding to take something, being under the influence of it, and the after effects.

:anjali:
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by jonno »

Hi all. Just a few thoughts.on antidepressants.not all depression/mental illness is caused by our actions, many are the result of chemical imbalances ,not caused by diet,karma etc but by the body either underproducing or overproducing certain chemicals,hormones etc.medications can in certain illnesses eg bipolar disorder , psychoses , and depression restore the correct balance. Ok it can be argued that our actions can have negative results for ourselves and others, but when you are depressed or in a state of severe anxiety you are in no fit state to practice therefore the medications can help to alleviate the symptoms so that you are in a fit state.

Likewise in physical illness,there are many factors which lead to illness and most are outside of our control, and have little to do with diet,excercise ,or our mental/spiritual state, but may be from infections, genetics etc. denying medications or treatments only adds to suffering.In my voluntary work in a hospice I encounter many beautiful beings who through no fault of their own are suffering, so anything which relieves that suffering,is an act of compassion and love. Jonno
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by corrine »

Sometimes pain is caused by environmental issues. The library where I work is full of book dust. I am allergic to book dust. I have three choices - I can not work there, I can take allergy pills every day to try to avoid the headache that results from the dust, or I can take an aspirin when the headache becomes so bad that I can no longer function. I chose the third way because working at the library allows me to make a real contribution to my community. I do not like to take pills every day, so instead of allergy pills I chose to take the aspirin when necessary to keep on working.

Pain can kill you. Yes, it absolutely can. My late husband was treated for a stage four cancer for ten years. He survived but went through all treatments from radiation to chemo and surgery. He avoided pain killers at all costs but occasionally had to use them. I spent a lot of time on the cancer ward and there were patients screaming from pain. Often bone cancer patients. They were allowed only so much pain medication because of legal obstacles. So they would scream until they passed out. In my humble opinion, this is a barbaric way to treat patients. Cancers can develop from environmental poisons that have nothing to do with one's own choices. Until recently, every where I went, people smoked. So I was exposed to that poison for years. Still in many states, waitresses are exposed to second hand smoke. One must make a living so the individual is often exposed to things that one would avoid if possible. Factories often have poisonous atmospheres but we have to work.

I think it is more a matter of using reason (the middle way) and using medications only when absolutely necessary. A friend of mine spent a life living in a dark room until he finally agreed to take anti-depressants. They changed his life. He had tried everything else but ended up non functional. For him, the medication was necessary as the issue was physical. He had been that way from childhood.

Common sense should come into play when deciding what to take and problems that can be helped by modifying one's life style. But medication is not always self indulgence. Sometimes it makes the difference between living a life and just existing.

corrine :)
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