The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:28 am

Virgo wrote:
SamKR wrote: Do the conditions stated in the first quote above (ie.,listening to the right dhamma and wise considering of what is heard) arise on their own out of nowhere? Or, do their arising succeed the intention to listen and consider wisely?
Hello:

The intention also only arises based on conditions. For example, one has listened to Dhamma in the past, one thinks there maybe some benefit, one likes the voice of the person speaking, one has respect for Dhamma from past experience with it, etc.

Kevin
Hello Kevin,
True, that the intention also arises based on conditions. No doubt.
dhamma follower wrote:If one thinks that it is the formal practice- of which the underlying emphasis is the intention to do something in particular, as opposed to just going about our daily chores naturally- that is needed for the arising of understanding, one is actually assuming may be unknowingly) a self who can intend to make sati to arise in certain circumstances.
My questions is: How is this intention to do "formal" practice necessarily different from intention to listen and consider right dhamma? How only this so called "formal" practice is based on wrong view of self? Can't the so called "formal" practice be practiced without wrong view of self? Can't there be conditions for the intention to practice formally (other than wrong view of self) just like there are conditions for the intention to listen and consider dhamma (as Kevin stated above)?

No one would deny that hearing the Dhamma and wise-consideration is necessary. I think the "formal" practices are rightly done only after hearing the right Dhamma and having wise consideration. If not, then they will of course become blind rituals -- just as listening to the "right dhamma" is also suceptible to become a ritual.

Edit: corrected a sentence

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:19 am

Dear Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
The idea of a self goes hand in hand with the idea that dhammas do not depend only on conditions to arise.
Who has said, implied, or suggested here that dhammas do not depend upon conditions?
The stretching on "formal practice" versus "leaving sati-panna to arise in our natural daily life when there are conditions for it to arise" suggests that certain dhammas (such as sati) can arise because of one's intention or will. Otherwise, why the idea of formal practice at all?

Brgrds,

D.F

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:24 am

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
The idea of a self goes hand in hand with the idea that dhammas do not depend only on conditions to arise.
Who has said, implied, or suggested here that dhammas do not depend upon conditions?
The stretching on "formal practice" versus "leaving sati-panna to arise in our natural daily life when there are conditions for it to arise" suggests that certain dhammas (such as sati) can arise because of one's intention or will. Otherwise, why the idea of formal practice at all?

Brgrds,

D.F
Please restate. The above is not at all clear to me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:27 am

dhamma follower wrote: Let's see what the texts say:
Mindfulness, . . .

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is only one text, writen by Buddhaghosa with a modern gloss. There is not a thing in that text that requires that it must be interpreted as the gloss suggests.
One should not try to direct mindfulness to a particular object; there is no self who can have power over any reality or who can direct sad [sic].
Interesting contradiction here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:35 am

Dear Dan
Dan74 wrote: Hi DF

Of course we are all well-served to study the teachings - this is not in dispute. The question to me is how do we apply the teachings in our lives?

Do we verify the Dhamma through experience by insight into its actual workings as it happens, do we train the mind so that it is clear and sharp, to see how defilement and clinging arises and cut it off at the root? Or do we rely on the words and trust our untrained confused and deluded mind to apply them properly?
Behind this question is the idea of "self" who can do something... When listening to the right Dhamma, i.e- the Dhamma on realities and anattaness, if there is understanding, it will understand that whatever appears now (seeing, hearing etc...)is only dhamma, not me. Seeing now arises because there's the visible object, eye sense, and eye consciousness, not "I" seeing someone or something. That's how the Teachings are applied in our lives. Not you, me or anyone can do anything. It is the function of panna to do the work.

At first, panna is only of the intellectual level. It is the beginning of the development of understanding. By hearing more about details of realities, and more consideration of what has been heard, which pertains to now, this intellectual understanding can grow, but only gradually, until thira sanna (firm rememberance ) is established and can condition the arising of sati which is directly aware of realities.The development of panna takes a long time, very very long time....

Brgrd,
D.F

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The practical, experiential reality is, of course, you really won't know or have an idea of what attachments and other such problems there are in your mind/body process that will obstruct your cultivation of calmness until you actually do the practice to cultivate calmness and then actually bump into these problems and then have to deal with them in the light of awareness. If you do not do the practice, these issues may never clearly arise, and you'll never know. And much the same can be said for vipassana.
Are you implying the words of the Blessed One are not good enough?
Quite the contrary.
I think the problem comes rather from not reflecting enough on his words.
Actually, it would seem far more likely that the problem is that my understanding simply does not agree with you understanding, and I have yet to see anything in this thread that is a compelling argument for your undestanding.
If there's more reflecting on his words, which point to all what we experience in our daily life, it can condition a lot more understanding. However, in our deep rooted self-view and desire to get result, we try to "do" something, even to the point of putting his words aside and believing more in our own interpretation based on our deluded perception.
And quite frankly, that argument can just as easily be applied to your point of view. The reality is that there is room for understanding these things differently. The problem comes with insisting that one's understanding is the only way and everyone else's is wrong (which is what it looks like you followers of Sujin are doing).
We say we take refuge in the Buddha, but do we really take his words to heart and examine them?
Are you going to tell me that I do not? Based upon what, that I do not agree with you?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:37 am

Hi Sam,
SamKR wrote: No one would deny that hearing the Dhamma and wise-consideration is necessary. I think the "formal" practices are rightly done only after hearing the right Dhamma and having wise consideration. If not, then they will of course become blind rituals -- just as listening to the "right dhamma" is also suceptible to become a ritual.
Your post neatly summarises the origin of my total incomprehension of the arguments put forward by the Khun Suhin students. I've been asking that question for five years or so and have never got an answer that I can understand. Certainly practising (by listening or doing other activities) is alway susceptible to wrong views ("I'm a wonderful Dhamma listener/practitioner who is correctly following the Buddha Vacana...").

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:Please restate. The above is not at all clear to me.
The stretching on "formal practice" suggests that certain dhammas (such as sati) can arise because of one's intention or will. Otherwise, why the idea of formal practice at all?

Is it clearer now?

D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:42 am

No one I know claims that these things arise from "will" so I presume you are talking about some teachers I don't know about.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:50 am

I am repeating the following because dhamma follower did not reply to it, and I would like him to do so.

===========================================
  • dhamma follower wrote:
    As it has been said, the choice doesn't belong to anyone, it is cetana perfoming its functions, but ignorance takes it for "mine" or "his".

    Understanding that it is not "me", but only elements arising by conditions is what constitutes right view, an indispensable factor of the Path, isn't it?

    Best wishes,
    D.F
    It depends, but until you have awakening you have to work with the "me" and "mine." Also, since this is the classical section we can talk about things using conventional or ultimate language. Conventional language is less clumsy.

    The Buddha did not speak falsely:
    • By oneself is evil done, by oneself is one defiled;
      By oneself is evil shunned, by oneself is one refined.

      To polish or stain, on ourselves it depends,
      For a person cannot by another be cleansed.

      (Dhammapada 165)
    From the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya:
    Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā.

    To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which
    each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena.
    AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55

    http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā. And since this is not an Abhidhamma section we need not be limited to trying to speak in Abhidhamma-ese.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:54 am

Dear Sam KR
SamKR wrote:
My questions is: How is this intention to do "formal" practice necessarily different from intention to listen and consider right dhamma? How only this so called "formal" practice is based on wrong view of self? Can't the so called "formal" practice be practiced without wrong view of self? Can't there be conditions for the intention to practice formally (other than wrong view of self) just like there are conditions for the intention to listen and consider dhamma (as Kevin stated above)?

No one would deny that hearing the Dhamma and wise-consideration is necessary. I think the "formal" practices are rightly done only after hearing the right Dhamma and having wise consideration. If not, then they will of course become blind rituals -- just as listening to the "right dhamma" is also suceptible to become a ritual.

Edit: corrected a sentence
The difference is one is the teaching of the Buddha (that listening to the right Dhamma and wise consideration condition the arising of sati-panna) and the other (that intending to have sati by formal practice) is not, it is the contrary to the Buddha's teaching on anattaness and dependent originations.

Furthermore, even listening to the right Dhamma and wise consideration are also conditioned. If this is not understood, then it would also become a ritual. So it all depends on understanding, not on the doing. Without hearing the right words and wise consideration of it, however, there will not be conditions for panna to arise. Should we dispute with the Buddha about it?

You maintained that "formal" practice can be done rightly after listening to the right Dhamma and wise consideration. However, AS suggests that if one thinks of "formal practice", it simply means that there's not been right understanding of what had been heard, because a self-view is still there.

Brgrds,

D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:56 am

Dear Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:No one I know claims that these things arise from "will" so I presume you are talking about some teachers I don't know about.

:anjali:
Mike
So why there has to be a formal practice?

Brgds,

D.F

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:59 am

Possibly some a drawn to sitting and walking due to a past conditions developed and it is appropriate for their temperament.

The practice of formal meditation is also part of the tradition, which has allowed the teaching to be passed down from the time of the Buddha.

It is something that is encouraged by the wise.

It's benefits can be experienced here and now.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:59 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Please restate. The above is not at all clear to me.
The stretching on "formal practice" suggests that certain dhammas (such as sati) can arise because of one's intention or will. Otherwise, why the idea of formal practice at all?

Is it clearer now?

D.F
"The stretching on" is a bit obscure, but I think I get your meaning here.

Let me ask you, using conventional language, one can act intentionally -- kamma --, and does not such an action give rise to dhammas? Could not these dhammas then, in turn, be the conditions for the arising of sati? Speaking conventionally, one can certainly act in such a way that the conditions for sati arise. That is not say to that one just sits on a cushion and say: "Arise sati!!!" But it is to say that one can cultivate conditions that lead to the arising of sati. Even your method claims as much, but just in a more circumbendibus way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:02 am

dhamma follower wrote:The difference is one is the teaching of the Buddha (that listening to the right Dhamma and wise consideration condition the arising of sati-panna) and the other (that intending to have sati by formal practice) is not, it is the contrary to the Buddha's teaching on anattaness and dependent originations.
This is a claim that no one here has yet demonstrated, and -- I am sorry to say -- it smacks of the worst sort of sectarianism. If there is value to the Sujin type of practice, it is not well served by this sort of we-have-it-you-don't approach.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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