What is intellect & mental qualities.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

Okay. Then it may be concluded with
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At least here, in the context of what "all" is, there is no mention of "mind". :sage:
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

ground wrote:Okay. Then it may be concluded with
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At least here, in the context of what "all" is, there is no mention of "mind". :sage:
"intellect" and "mind" are just two English translations of the Pali "mano"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by mikenz66 »

ground wrote:Okay. Then it may be concluded with
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At least here, in the context of what "all" is, there is no mention of "mind". :sage:
The last phrase is more often translated as "mind and mind objects"...

:sage:
Mike
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Polar Bear
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by Polar Bear »

ground wrote:Okay. Then it may be concluded with
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At least here, in the context of what "all" is, there is no mention of "mind". :sage:
I'm not sure if you're more concerned with the reification of the word mind or the idea that events of consciousness can occur without a corresponding state of a brain but if you're concerned about the reification of mind then I would suggest you realize that mind is just a handy word that encompasses events of consciousness and all the faculties that arise from events of consciousness such as memory, awareness, thoughts, etc. and assume that anyone who's read the suttas or has observed their "mind" a wee bit would know that. As for the "materialist" vs. "dualist" stuff, it will never go anywhere on a forum like this, either view is fabricated, dependently originated, impermanent, stressful and subject to cessation regardless of the scientific observations that provide information on the correlation between what we call mind or consciousness or subjective experience and the brain. Still, despite the science favoring a view such as biological naturalism it is still not epistemologically justifiable to say only this is true, anything else is worthless. Events of consciousness without a corresponding state of a brain may be possible, although of course it seems unlikely given the current scientific knowledge about the brain.

:yingyang:
Last edited by Polar Bear on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

mikenz66 wrote:
ground wrote:Okay. Then it may be concluded with
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At least here, in the context of what "all" is, there is no mention of "mind". :sage:
The last phrase is more often translated as "mind and mind objects"...

:sage:
Mike
Which reflects the preferred ideas of the translator. But again ... words do not make a difference but consciousness does. If one prefers to apply the word "God" to express oneself in different contexts it does not follow that there is something more than the mere idea expressed with "God", it just follows that the sense of self prefers to express itself that way. :sage:

BTW B. Bodhi expresses himself with "mind and mental phenomena"
SarathW
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote:Although the physical brain is important to the proper function of the mind, it'd be incorrect to say the mental process "comes" from the brain. In other word, the mind is not "born" out of the brain. Otherwise, it'd mean the "body" is a resort to the mind. But instead, it's the "mind" that is the resort to the other 5 sense faculties. So during meditation, when you think about a mental object, according to the sutta, that means your mind, the mental object, and your mind consciousness have made "contact". .
Could you tell me what is Mano (mind and mind objects) in terms of five aggregat. Is it Snkhara?
Please also tell me what is mind and objects in terms of Dependent Origination. Is it Vinnana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by santa100 »

Hi SarathW, the Five Aggregates could also be sliced and diced differently as NamaRupa (Name and Form). This way of classification makes it a bit easier to see the relationship with Mano since Rupa refers to the physical /material side while Nama refers to the cognitive side of individual existence. Nama is further explained by the Buddha in SN 12.2 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.
So from that, although Mano is not explicitly defined within the context of the Five Aggregates, we could safely say that Nama is centered on Mano just like Rupa is centered on the CatuDhatu (4 great elements: earth, water, fire, and air).

Similarly for the DO model, which also contains NamaRupa as the 4th link of the chain. However, other links of DO also relate to mind and mind objects like: Contact (phassa), an essential factor between mind and mind objects; Six Sense Bases (salayatana) which is inclusive of the 5 physical faculties and the "mind" faculty.

Your last question is whether Mano is the same as Vinnana (consciousness). And the answer is no. Vinnana is actually the condition to Mano. However, the two are mutually dependent, just like "two sheaves of reeds leaning against one another"..
SarathW
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by SarathW »

:clap:
Thanks. What a great answer!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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