The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:43 pm

I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.

Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.

On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the eye of wisdom is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:47 pm

robertk wrote: Good to see you..
Likewise. :P

Kevin

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:48 pm

robertk wrote:I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.
Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
That is why the path is so narrow.

Kevin

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:58 pm

robertk wrote:I
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
So one just has to have the right conceptual structure to see clearly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
No. it's not easy, nor difficult, because it is not a thing we "do". It occurs, slowly. What occurs? With conceptual Right View, wisdom on the level of experience occurs when conditions are right as we move through the days, weeks, etc. This happens slowly. We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord. After all, what we are seeing is anatta in action itself. Slowly, over many, many lifetimes, many of them, wisdom gets deeper and deeper.

Kevin

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

is there a conventional self who decides?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:42 pm

Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 4395
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SDC » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:47 pm

SDC wrote:Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:
Thank you.

:tongue:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin
I did not say there was a self or person in any absolute sense, and you are being, again, evasive. The nice thing is that your point of view -- We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord -- is an outlier, not really consistent with the core of the Buddha's teachings.
  • “Owners of their kamma are beings, heirs of their kamma, kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, there of they will be the heirs.” - MN 135; iii 206; MLDB p. 1057.
  • This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38. * *
In other words, by our actions we can, indeed, adjust "those conditions" that give rise to insight and awakening by cultivating the precepts, lovingkindness, compassion, generosity, concentration, mindfulness, right view, etc. Adjusting those conditions is the whole point of the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
It's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:01 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
I think it's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:
And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)

:sage:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:06 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)
Of course, but the choice was his.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 81 guests