No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Polar Bear
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:19 am

:goodpost:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Kusala
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Kusala » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:26 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:In the opinion of many, these God-based religions did great damage to society, and are still doing great damage. And, from what I heard, there are too many cases of child sexual abuse among the Buddhist clergy, just as there are such reports in other religious orders.

Then there are the many wars waged in the name of religion due to false beliefs and bigotted views.

It may be much easier for the sceptical atheist or secular humanist to understand the Dhamma than for the devout follower of any religion (and that includes devout followers of Buddhism who are hypocrits).

Believing in an Omnipotent Creator God is quite different to believing in devas or ghosts, or nature spirits of various kinds. The crucial point is accepting full responsibility for one's own actions according to the teaching of Kammassakatta Sammādiṭṭhi. It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.
Well said...
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"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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kirk5a
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:52 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The crucial point is accepting full responsibility for one's own actions according to the teaching of Kammassakatta Sammādiṭṭhi. It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.
Bhante - I was reminded of this passage by Paul the Apostle, what do you think, would believing this be in line with what you're saying?
Galatians 6:7 wrote: Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
(edit: actually I should have said that I was reminded of a passage from Matthew that I happened to be reading last night, but I was having trouble finding it this morning, so I Googled it and found the one by Paul)
Last edited by kirk5a on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:09 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:Theism is probably responsible for more human misery and death than anything except bacteria and viruses.
It should be outlawed. Read the news. Read some history for christs sake.
I would argue political ambition done quite a good job of keeping up.
It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:24 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:Theism is probably responsible for more human misery and death than anything except bacteria and viruses.
It should be outlawed. Read the news. Read some history for christs sake.
I would argue political ambition done quite a good job of keeping up.
It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
sure but you can use any ideology for that. Create a sense of self and other within the group, and you can produce the same effect, or not depending on the aim behind the ideology and how it is used.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Nyana
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Nyana » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:30 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:35 pm

The real problem is attachment to views, views cover both religion and all other forms of ideology.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Cittasanto wrote: sure but you can use any ideology for that. Create a sense of self and other within the group, and you can produce the same effect, or not depending on the aim behind the ideology and how it is used.
Yes, any ideology could be used. The reason religious ideology is so often employed is that it stands ready for service, is a tried and true method to dehumanize enemies and lends moral superiority. After all, those not of god are evil and killing them is not only not a sin, but a service to god.
When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.” The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_a ... His_own.22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion. Communist regimes killed a lot of people, but my bet for sheer over all historical body count is still on religion and god. Nationalism seems to be gaining ground on the leader tho.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

perkele
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by perkele » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:44 pm

And what's the point of all this resentment?

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Cittasanto
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:04 pm

Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age? how many christian or jewish parents would stone a child to death for back chat? it is an ideology that can be interpreted to fit the views of the reader, yet it is still just an ideology. any ideology can be used as you admit and examples are given by another which have been used in just the same way without religion god...
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:10 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?
I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Nyana » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:14 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion.
Yes, well, antisemitism wasn't the cause of WW II. And of the approx. 60 million war casualties, approx. 20 million were soldiers and 40 million were civilians (and of the approx. 11 - 17 million civilians who were killed as a result of Nazi ideological policies, 6 million were Jewish).

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:17 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?
I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.
any
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by appicchato » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:03 pm

...eternal life
Bummer...

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