what gets reborn

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:01 pm

Greetings,
convivium wrote:
... of samsaric existence, it is.
if so, it seems that consciousness must exist independent of samsara; without consciousness, how could ignorance arise as samsara's first cause?
It depends what you're understanding "consciousness" as, I guess.

Vinnana, which is often translated as "consciousness" but may possibly be best understood as "presence" or "experience" is dependent upon "sankhara"... which is formation or fabrication. Thus vinnana is the presence or experience of a fabrication. But then... I doubt "presence or experience of a fabrication" is what you had in mind when you were talking about "consciousness".

EDIT: Saw your edit, and I don't take "samsara" to mean the "universe"... I take it to mean fabricated (i.e sankhata) existence.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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convivium
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by convivium » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:07 pm

Thanks for your response! Of course the universe goes on when one enters parinibbana, as it were. So there seems to be a divide between subjective/sentient experience, and objective reality. I am interested in how this objective reality relates to subjective/sentient experience (in terms of causing it to arise, or allowing it to cease etc). edit: i guess i could start off with the question of exactly what this objective reality consists in (minus samsara). i think consciousness would have to be a basic attribute or substance of the universe itself for kamma-linked rebirth to operate.
Last edited by convivium on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SarathW » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:28 pm

convivium wrote:Only by eliminating ignorance can the dependent origination sequence cease and by extension samsara. Correct?
Ignorance mean not understanding the true nature of phenomena or the impermanance, un satisfactoryness and soul lessness.
Hence a person think I, me, mine and myself. This is what cause rebirth.
Please also note that the consciousness does not exist its own but arise due to reason.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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convivium
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by convivium » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:31 pm

Ignorance mean not understanding the true nature of phenomena or the impermanance, un satisfactoryness and soul lessness.
Hence a person think I, me, mine and myself. This is what cause rebirth.
Please also note that the consciousness does not exist its own but arise due to reason.
what's that reason?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:05 am

convivium wrote:
Ignorance mean not understanding the true nature of phenomena or the impermanance, un satisfactoryness and soul lessness.
Hence a person think I, me, mine and myself. This is what cause rebirth.
Please also note that the consciousness does not exist its own but arise due to reason.
what's that reason?

not understanding the true nature of phenomena or the impermanance, un satisfactoryness and soul lessness. :D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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convivium
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by convivium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:10 am

well, how can you fail to have understanding without consciousness?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:19 am

Let it go.
So I will let you go!
LY
:smile:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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convivium
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by convivium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:22 am

In other words, in order to understand or fail to understand, one must first be conscious.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

SarathW
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:33 am

I see you point. You can't attain Arahantship bu logic or arguments. You should develop Sila,Samadhi and Panna. :D
Please read the link below from chapter 15:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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convivium
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by convivium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:36 am

You can't attain Arahantship bu logic or arguments.
maybe not. in any case, one can better understand why one might want to attain arahatship in the first place.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

SarathW
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:50 am

True. I agree with you. :clap:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by ground » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:52 am

what gets reborn
After the death of one idea aka consciousness another is born (i.e. consciousness is re-born) in the aftermath of mentally affirming the former by means of imputing a sense of this idea being more than just an idea. This may be called "perpetuation of consciousness" or "the cycle of rebirths". If affirmation ceases perpetuation ceases which may be called "end of rebirths". :sage:

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:57 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: what gets reborn

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:18 am

retrofuturist wrote::goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
? Well, it could be clearer.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Digity
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by Digity » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:29 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
I don't understand people's preoccupation with looking for the "what" that gets reborn. I'd counter that question with another question: Why do you think there needs to be a "what" that gets reborn in the first place? What exactly are you looking for in this "what" and why? I think when you look at this question deeply you'll see that it's really the ego doing the talking...it's trying to find something solid to plant itself into. It doesn't like the alternative idea, because it loses footing then and no longer has a firm grip.

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