the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:01 pm

None of that is found in the Nikayas, so I'd not bother with such psychic maths. It's a form of "how am I", and thus inappropriate to attend to, per MN 2.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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gavesako
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gavesako » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:42 am

Rebirth and Not-Rebirth in Buddhism - Ashin Ottama

Published on Jan 21, 2013
Last 25 minutes of this video present new understanding of 'afterlife'. Jump directly to position 01:01:55.
CONTENTS of the video:
00:30 The epicenter of original Buddha's Message
07:10 God-Creator versus the Buddha
10:40 Karma, Rebirth, Samsara, Bhumi
24:00 Buddhism without beliefs
27:25 Here-and-Now against the 'Dharma-cake'
30:55 Additions and later created teachings
36:05 Spiritual 'landscape' with many peaks
39:26 Ajahn Buddhadasa
53:40 Rebirth and Samsara in the Scriptures
1:01:55 Indications for rebirth
1:03:00 Children's memories, tapping collective memory
1:07:05 Unreliable hypnoses and regressions
1:12:00 Mind undocked from brain
1:16:20 Near Death Experiences
1:18:15 Sweat-through pajamas
1:20:50 New understanding of 'afterlife'

This video is a Buddhist Dharma-talk, but the last half-hour is highly recommendable to all thoughtful people: it points to the unexpected nature and reality of 'afterlife'.

http://youtu.be/RGeTBmRqpfY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

greggorious
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by greggorious » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:17 pm

For those of you who do believe in Re-birth, do you believe there's a process after death, kind of like the Tibetan book of the dead, or that you're pretty much re-born straight away? I've read a few books on near death experiences and from what I gather, there's definitely some kind of process involved.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jerrod Lopes » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:53 am

I "believe" in rebirth, but nothing at all like in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The Buddha didn't teach anything like that. How quickly or slowly a rebirth takes place is all about the kammas made before the death took place. Each one is unique to the being that died. There's no easy, cut and dried answer for that question unless you can see kamma and determine the likely results very well. Not impossible though.

My view on the process of dying is that at or very near the final stages it is very much like jhana in terms of perceptions. This would be the case in a relatively peaceful, natural and not sudden death. As for sudden deaths, I think it can be instantaneous with no perceivable events by the one dying ( i.e. one minute there, the next gone).

Be well. :)

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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:24 am

Jerrod Lopes wrote:I "believe" in rebirth, but nothing at all like in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The Buddha didn't teach anything like that. How quickly or slowly a rebirth takes place is all about the kammas made before the death took place. Each one is unique to the being that died. There's no easy, cut and dried answer for that question unless you can see kamma and determine the likely results very well. Not impossible though.

My view on the process of dying is that at or very near the final stages it is very much like jhana in terms of perceptions. This would be the case in a relatively peaceful, natural and not sudden death. As for sudden deaths, I think it can be instantaneous with no perceivable events by the one dying ( i.e. one minute there, the next gone).

Be well. :)
And what is this based on?
Is it just your own personal opinion or is there something more substantial supporting your conjectures?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jerrod Lopes » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:37 am

Ben,

Quite frankly I can't think of anything more substantial than my own experience. I think this is why the Buddha said that he was open to being questioned and encouraged people to try the path for themselves. Buddhism is, as you certainly know, an experiential path, not a revealed religion. If you don't take me at my word, so be it. Doesn't matter to me one way or another.

Come to think on it...maybe if the PhD that taught me about dying and the process of dying were to have explained it, you may have been happier/ more satisfied with the post?

What is with you guys on this site? Try meditating. Relax a bit. Not everything is meant to be an argument. Geez.

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:36 pm

greggorious wrote:For those of you who do believe in Re-birth, do you believe there's a process after death, kind of like the Tibetan book of the dead, or that you're pretty much re-born straight away? I've read a few books on near death experiences and from what I gather, there's definitely some kind of process involved.
I believe that orthodox interpretation goes something like this: The last moment of the mind conditions the first moment of consciousness of a child in the womb. Nothing flies over from one body to another. Even in this life there is no unchanging consciousness or the mind. Rather there is a process where states of mind change.

The NDE might be nothing more than malfunctioning brain hallucinating.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

greggorious
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by greggorious » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:28 pm

Alex123 wrote:The NDE might be nothing more than malfunctioning brain hallucinating.
What like when dying people can know the details of a different part of the hospital that they've never been to, and can bring back exact details of it? Also when blind people who have never been able to see can suddenly see and bring back details too?
Too many people are quick to dismiss the NDE as activity of a dying brain, rather than the phenomenon that it is. The idea of the NDE is as logical as re-birth in my view.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:33 pm

greggorious wrote: Too many people are quick to dismiss the NDE as activity of a dying brain, rather than the phenomenon that it is.
Hi greggorious
What is it?

greggorious
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by greggorious » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:45 pm

Read 'lessons from the light' by Kenneth Ring. Can explain things much better than I can.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:01 pm

greggorious wrote:can know the details of a different part of the hospital that they've never been to, and can bring back exact details of it?
Maybe there are less paranormal explanations of that such as: they overheard it from someone, the knew it, lucky guess, etc.
greggorious wrote: Also when blind people who have never been able to see can suddenly see and bring back details too?
So one can see without using the eyes? I would like to know how to do that. Doesn't this reject the Buddhist teaching that seeing occurs when there is external object AND THE EYE present along with all the other necessary conditions?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:05 pm

greggorious wrote:Read 'lessons from the light' by Kenneth Ring. Can explain things much better than I can.
Hi greggorious,
You want me to read a book? Does the book say what it is?

greggorious
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by greggorious » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:20 pm

Alex, I don't care if it rejects a Buddhist teaching. I don't agree with every single Buddhist teaching there is.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:So one can see without using the eyes? I would like to know how to do that. Doesn't this reject the Buddhist teaching that seeing occurs when there is external object AND THE EYE present along with all the other necessary conditions?
There are such phenomena in the texts such as the Divine Eye and the Divine Ear, where seeing and hearing of actual events occurs, but not through the physical organs. These abilities are ascribed to those of high meditation attainments, such as Ven. Moggallana, but still... according to the texts, the answer to whether it is possible to see without using the physical eyes appears to be yes.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 3.html#ch7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:06 pm

greggorious wrote:Alex, I don't care if it rejects a Buddhist teaching. I don't agree with every single Buddhist teaching there is.
But super visions in NDE also rejects common sense. Why we have eyes if, apparently, we can see without them? How can I see without using my eyes?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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