the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:42 pm

gendun wrote:But Ajahn Chah taught Rebirth, so did Ajahn Sumedho and so does Ajahn Munindo.
So your post puzzles me.
I'd be interested to see what you are referring to.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gendun » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:51 pm

was referring to Alokas statement that she/he was a a believer before discovering The Forest Sangha, and that now he/she is agnostic..but the Forest Sangha Ajahns teach rebirth.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:58 pm

gendun wrote:was referring to Alokas statement that she/he was a a believer before discovering The Forest Sangha, and that now he/she is agnostic..but the Forest Sangha Ajahns teach rebirth.
Firstly my post was to Jerrod and not you, Gendun - and secondly I didn't say that I became agnostic because of the Forest Tradition, so you are jumping to huge assumptions there.

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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:03 pm

gendun wrote:was referring to Alokas statement that she/he was a a believer before discovering The Forest Sangha, and that now he/she is agnostic..but the Forest Sangha Ajahns teach rebirth.
I was meaning examples of Ajahn Chah's, Ajahn Sumedho's, and Ajahn Munindo's teachings on rebirth.

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:06 pm

gendun wrote:...so did Ajahn Sumedho...
How do you know ? I thought you were an Aro gTer follower.(See thread on Aro gTer at Dharma Wheel)

Ajahn Sumedho didn't teach about rebirth at any of the teachings I attended - and in his book "The Sound of Silence" he said:
"I quite like the idea of reincarnation, and of rebirth, on a theoretical level. I've no bias against it, but it is speculative and it's conceptual."
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:11 pm

....and since you mentioned Ajahn Chah I'll quote Ajahn Sumedho from the bit before my previous quote:

PAGE 237

“Rebirth,” like “reincarnation,” is a term that’s used generally referring to having gone through a series of different lives, and then there are various views about whether once you get reincarnated into human form where you can go, become a frog again or something like that. I was teaching a retreat in Australia at the Theosophical Society, where people’s views were split. Some held that once you made it to the human level you can’t slide back into a lesser animal one, whereas others insisted that you could. But the truth of the matter is, nobody really knows.


When Ajahn Chah taught about rebirth, he did so in the context of paticcasumappada, or dependent origination. He was talking about the kind of rebirth you can actually witness in daily life; birth is the beginning, death is the ending. How many rebirths have you gone through today, mentally ? What is born dies; what arises, ceases. Rebirth in this sense is actually provable.

In the paticcasamuppada, through desire (tanha) comes attachment (upadana), and then attachment leads to becoming (bhava), becoming leads to rebirth, and rebirth leads to suffering. Jati (birth) is the result of grasping desire. I quite like the idea of reincarnation and rebirth, on a theoretical level. I’ve no bias against it, but it is speculative and it’s conceptual.”

:anjali:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gendun » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:13 pm

I am not an ArogTer follower, and never have been.
I am not a Theravada student but I have been present when Ajahn Sumedho talked about rebirth in a literal sense. And when Ajahn Munindo talked at length about the dynamics of " again becoming ". (Punnabbhava )
Last edited by gendun on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:22 pm

gendun wrote:I am not an ArogTer follower, and never have been.
I am not a Theravada student but I have been present when Ajahn Sumedho talked about rebirth in a literal sense. And when Ajahn Munindo talked at length about the dynamics of " again becoming ".
So what's your point anyway ? Deciding to adopt a "don't know " position about rebirth was my personal decision and nothing to do with any Ajahns.

Its my bedtime now - so I'll say "goodnight."

:zzz:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gendun » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:28 pm

Aloka wrote:
gendun wrote:...so did Ajahn Sumedho...
How do you know ? I thought you were an Aro gTer follower.(See thread on Aro gTer at Dharma Wheel)

Ajahn Sumedho didn't teach about rebirth at any of the teachings I attended - and in his book "The Sound of Silence" he said:
"I quite like the idea of reincarnation, and of rebirth, on a theoretical level. I've no bias against it, but it is speculative and it's conceptual."
I have never posted on Dharma Wheel..ever.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:35 pm

gendun wrote: I have never posted on Dharma Wheel..ever.
OK - well I noticed your posts in a topic on this website in support of Aro g'Ter and mentioning Malcome have been quoted there in the 'Dharma Free For All.'

Goodnight :anjali:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gendun » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:44 pm

Aloka wrote:
gendun wrote: I have never posted on Dharma Wheel..ever.
OK - well I noticed your posts in a topic on this website in support of Aro g'Ter and mentioning Malcome have been quoted there in the 'Dharma Free For All.'

Goodnight :anjali:
Goodnight.

:anjali:
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:14 am

Aloka wrote:Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.
Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.


Quite the opposite. It was the FEAR of rebirth that motivated Prince Siddhartha to seek Nibbana. Most of dukkha is not a psychological "you didn't get what you craved". The problem with craving is that it leads to more rebirth which means that one has to work, age, get sick, experience excruciating pain potentially endless amount of time until Nibbana and in some lifeforms the pain is trillions times greater than in this human life.

This time we have it lucky. We weren't born as starving kid in Africa... But with rebirth there is no guarantee unless one becomes an Aryan.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:57 am

Alex123 wrote:
Aloka wrote:Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.
Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.
Many would see the whole religious thing as a comforter

Most of dukkha is not a psychological
See here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 88&start=0

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by gendun » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:26 am

Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.
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Mr Man
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:43 am

gendun wrote:Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.
The first noble truth here and now?

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