False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

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pink_trike
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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by pink_trike » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:07 am

Annabel wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I was talking with a friend last week about "vocal gymnastics" (of the ilk of Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, but even opera singers too) and I told him that whilst I agree it's a certain rare talent (I know I couldn't do it), it wasn't something I personally gained enjoyment from. We had a talk about the voice as a musical instrument, and I was prompted to look further into why it did not appeal to me.

One reason that came to me, which I'd never really thought about before was that it is expressing "false emotion". A significant percentage of songs that get recorded are about love, many of those about very real and personal experiences... but what happens when that love is gone, or the way you feel about something evolves and changes? If the highly emotive lyrics which seemed appropriate at the time are no longer relevant, because you've fallen out of love, is it appropriate to keep singing them? And if those vocal acrobatics were intended to convey that true emotion, is it sincere to keep singing them in the same way as you did before? And if you sing them the same way as they did before, did they ever really represent true emotion?

Some singers or musicians stop playing songs live at a certain point in their career because they no longer feel it valid to be singing that song any more. Such examples are rare and hard to come by, but I find I have more respect for the integrity behind these choices, than to go on singing these songs, performing the vocal acrobatics, and go on "entertaining" others with words and tones that are now so shallow and false.

What are your thoughts on emotions and vocal acrobatics in the name of entertainment?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hello, Retro,

I was actually wondering, after you expressed dislike for Michael Jackson's music, if you are a classical music fan, because those often have a distinct aversion against "jungle music". :smile:

It doesn't seem that way, though, if you say you don't gain enjoyment (pleasure) from "Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, but even opera singers too".
I was prompted to look further into why it did not appeal to me.
It appears to me as if you are still trying to come to grips with "aversion", and also with enjoyment= pleasure.

I compliment you, and let me assure you that I have my things to work on just as well, so I'm by no means trying to put myself above you, or anybody, my words are intended as a support, a benevolent pointing a dhamma friend to something, as I hope you will also gently point me to things.

No disrespect or anything negative intended.

Anyhow, the question of (a lack of) synchronicity you ask about is highly interesting.

Allow me a question:

Are you a practising artist?

Do you sing, dance, play an instrument, paint, sculpture, work with metal, wood, clay, landscape parks, sow cloth, make jewelry, or write books or poems?

Art is not your livelihood, right?

Because that is the crucial point.

A painter like Picasso paints a picture, sells it, and moves on to the next one.

But he will continue to produce .

A reproducing artist, like a singer, will sing a song 100 or 1000 times to the audience, - but never in the exact same way.

Plus, he cannot afford the luxury, to sing a song that feeds his belly only for one summer.

People love it, and when they fall in love, it speaks to them. Or they are broken-hearted, or cheerful, whatever.

So, the artist is a servant to those people he speaks to with his art.

He gives his special gift and talent to people.

No matter how tired he may be of the song, he will give it, if possible.

And if he is a spiritual person,- which most artists are-, with joy, to those who are touched in their hearts by his art.

Their applause makes him more happy than the money, many say.

They also modify tours.

When Michael Jackson knew that Diana, Princess of Wales, was in the audience, he couldn't sing: "Dirty Diana", because it didn't feel right.

As long as it feels right, artists will sing what they created, (ballett dancers will dance "Swanlake",) because it is a part of their art, is part of their history, and why deny that?

hey love the feedback and I am so sure, because I am an artist myself, and positive feedback is great.

I may not personally like a particular style anymore, because I moved on to something else, but if a customer wants something from an earlier time, I will be more than happy to produce it again.

Don't forget, artists have no other means of income, no unemployment money, and so each dollar is wonderful.

No work, no food.

Same for celebs.

:anjali:

PS: Mariah and Whitney don't sing anything that I would want to buy either. ... :D

But Maria Callas, yes.
Well, said.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:45 am

Thank you :anjali:

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by jcsuperstar » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:05 am

i spent most of my late teens and part of my 20s in bands had cds and records, played concerts , toured with bands, saw many friends get famous, get almost famous fail, kill themselves etc. the 90s were a great/interesting time for me. i also wrote for underground music zines so i was flooded with gazillions of cds and records to review (basically spoiled me so much that to this day i still cant pay for music)

there is something that some artists have, something "authentic" that some people are able to pick out while others simply can not. there is a difference between having talent and inspiration

talent is severly overrated
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:33 pm

Greetings Annabel,
Annabel wrote:I was actually wondering, after you expressed dislike for Michael Jackson's music, if you are a classical music fan, because those often have a distinct aversion against "jungle music". :smile:
That's franky absurd, Anna. I think you know it too. (for the record, I'm not a big classical music fan either... though it's alright)
Annabel wrote:It appears to me as if you are still trying to come to grips with "aversion", and also with enjoyment= pleasure.
I still can't fathom how you cannot differentiate between not being a fan of something and aversion. Do you like every song, every movie, every book, every piece of artwork ever created? Surely not, but that doesn't mean you need to feel aversion towards those things you don't like, does it? It just doesn't interest you... doesn't float your boat, as it were. Aversion is an unwholesome mindstate (a specific term with a specific meaning) which causes suffering. If I had aversion towards ever song I don't like, I think I would be insane by now. Are you seeing the difference yet?
Annabel wrote:Are you a practising artist?
I've made a bit of music in my time but I wouldn't call myself an "artist" - I just like music.

For me, the artistic integrity of the performer, is quite a significant factor too. Often those performers feel the same way too


Annabel wrote:As long as it feels right, artists will sing what they created, (ballett dancers will dance "Swanlake",) because it is a part of their art, is part of their history, and why deny that?
Sure, I'm not saying they can't... it just doesn't float my boat. They can do what they want for all I care. It's just not what I'll be getting into.
Annabel wrote: PS: Mariah and Whitney don't sing anything that I would want to buy either. ... :D
Shall I scream aversion at the top of my lungs? No.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Journey » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:53 pm

Annabel

"if you are a classical music fan, because those often have a distinct aversion against "jungle music". :smile:
I prefer Bach over Beethoven, this just is my personal taste, no aversion. However, if I spent my time hyping up the anti, proselytizing for or against and going out of my way to tell Beethoven supporters that he was not that great, then there is a good chance that an unwholesome mindstate like attachment or aversion is at play.

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by appicchato » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:36 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Shall I scream aversion at the top of my lungs?
Wait 'till I grab my earplugs... :pig:

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by DNS » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:37 pm

After reading some of the posts in this thread and other music related threads, I am glad I have pretty much given up on music listening altogether. No, I am not saying anything about any great attainments, I still have some enjoyment from some sense pleasures such as some food and art, but music is at least gone from my cravings. And thank goodness for that!

:jedi: :meditate:

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Journey » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:05 pm

I enjoy music but no longer crave it.

"Desire ultimately breeds fear and sorrow, but renunciation gives fearlessness and joy.

Just as perception influences thought, so thought can influence perception.

The Buddha does not offer as a solution the method of repression — the attempt to drive desire away with a mind full of fear and loathing. This approach does not resolve the problem but only pushes it below the surface, where it continues to thrive. The tool the Buddha holds out to free the mind from desire is understanding. Real renunciation is not a matter of compelling ourselves to give up things still inwardly cherished, but of changing our perspective on them so that they no longer bind us. When we understand the nature of desire, when we investigate it closely with keen attention, desire falls away by itself, without need for struggle."
http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spi ... rticle5474

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:33 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Annabel,
Annabel wrote:I was actually wondering, after you expressed dislike for Michael Jackson's music, if you are a classical music fan, because those often have a distinct aversion against "jungle music". :smile:
That's franky absurd, Anna. I think you know it too. (for the record, I'm not a big classical music fan either... though it's alright)
Annabel wrote:It appears to me as if you are still trying to come to grips with "aversion", and also with enjoyment= pleasure.
I still can't fathom how you cannot differentiate between not being a fan of something and aversion. Do you like every song, every movie, every book, every piece of artwork ever created? Surely not, but that doesn't mean you need to feel aversion towards those things you don't like, does it? It just doesn't interest you... doesn't float your boat, as it were. Aversion is an unwholesome mindstate (a specific term with a specific meaning) which causes suffering. If I had aversion towards ever song I don't like, I think I would be insane by now. Are you seeing the difference yet?
Annabel wrote:Are you a practising artist?
I've made a bit of music in my time but I wouldn't call myself an "artist" - I just like music.

For me, the artistic integrity of the performer, is quite a significant factor too. Often those performers feel the same way too


Annabel wrote:As long as it feels right, artists will sing what they created, (ballett dancers will dance "Swanlake",) because it is a part of their art, is part of their history, and why deny that?
Sure, I'm not saying they can't... it just doesn't float my boat. They can do what they want for all I care. It's just not what I'll be getting into.
Annabel wrote: PS: Mariah and Whitney don't sing anything that I would want to buy either. ... :D
Shall I scream aversion at the top of my lungs? No.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Annabel wrote:I was actually wondering, after you expressed dislike for Michael Jackson's music, if you are a classical music fan, because those often have a distinct aversion against "jungle music". :smile:
That's franky absurd, Anna. I think you know it too. (for the record, I'm not a big classical music fan either... though it's alright)
No, Retro, I'm serious.

Almost all the people know either go for classical , OR they like modern Music.

Few, like my brother and I, like both.

That is my experience, maybe yours is different? But that doesn't make mine absurd...
I still can't fathom how you cannot differentiate between not being a fan of something and aversion. Do you like every song, every movie, every book, every piece of artwork ever created? Surely not, but that doesn't mean you need to feel aversion towards those things you don't like, does it? It just doesn't interest you... doesn't float your boat, as it were. Aversion is an unwholesome mindstate (a specific term with a specific meaning) which causes suffering. If I had aversion towards ever song I don't like, I think I would be insane by now. Are you seeing the difference yet?
Yes, I do. Initially, you came across a bit different , in the MJ thread, but if you say you don't feel aversion, it just "doesn't float your boat", I believe you. (Nice term, btw, didn't know it....:smile: )
Annabel wrote: PS: Mariah and Whitney don't sing anything that I would want to buy either. ... :D
Shall I scream aversion at the top of my lungs? No.
;) It's more that I don't even buy the music that would really 'float my boat'.

I love that term.... :jumping:

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:40 pm

TheDhamma wrote:After reading some of the posts in this thread and other music related threads, I am glad I have pretty much given up on music listening altogether. No, I am not saying anything about any great attainments, I still have some enjoyment from some sense pleasures such as some food and art, but music is at least gone from my cravings. And thank goodness for that!

:jedi: :meditate:
Same here. I bought 2 or 3 CDs in my whole life...

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by appicchato » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:06 pm

Annabel wrote:Almost all the people know either go for classical , OR they like modern Music.
Hi Annabel,

With six billion people in the world (and counting) you may (or may not) wish to reconsider your basis for comparison...

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:38 pm

Appiachato, what can I say.

If you believe the human beings in my part of the world are very different from the rest of the world, perhaps you are right.

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Re: False emotions and Vocal acrobatics

Post by Ben » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:23 pm

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