khandhas and such

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

"we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" - Jake Davis
tiltbillings wrote:He is talking about experience.
tiltbillings wrote:The point of practice is .. experience
What about this, Tiltbillings?

1. Are you proposing Sariputta engaged in papanca?
When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat & consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log. - MN 43
2. What about entering & re-emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling. Are you saying this the same as Jesus Christ rising from the dead?
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling. - MN 43
3. What about this? Is Sariputta engaged in more pananca?
"Friend, there are these five faculties: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty."

"Now, these five faculties — the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty: In dependence on what do they remain standing?"

"These five faculties — the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — remain standing in dependence on vitality."

"And vitality remains standing in dependence on what?"

"Vitality remains standing in dependence on heat."

"And heat remains standing in dependence on what?"

"Heat remains standing in dependence on vitality."

"I will give you analogy, for there are cases where it is through an analogy that an intelligent person understands the meaning of a statement. Suppose an oil lamp is burning. Its radiance is discerned in dependence on its flame, and its flame is discerned in dependence on its radiance. In the same way, vitality remains standing in dependence on heat, and heat remains standing in dependence on vitality. - MN 43
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:...
You seem to have this thing about fighting with stuff people did not say or even remotely imply.
"we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" - Jake Davis
Since "intellectual consciousness" is your locution, so that we are on the same page, please define what you mean by it.

tiltbillings wrote:He is talking about experience.
tiltbillings wrote:The point of practice is .. experience
What about this, Tiltbillings? ....
Yes, what about it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:stuff people did not say or even remotely imply
Didn't you say:
tiltbillings wrote:"So, does nibbana exists if there are no awakened individuals?"
and didn't you say:
tiltbillings wrote:And thanks to meditation I fortunately do not have to worry about those pesky dhatu/elements thingies that don't exist
Further, didn't you quote (imply):
"we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" - Jake Davis
tiltbillings wrote:Yes, what about it?
Just answer the questions put forth in that post, if you can.

About the "intellectual consciousness", it was not my locution, but Jake Davis' locution, posted, linked and put into discussion by yourself. Since it came from you, go ahead to define it.

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nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:You seem to have this thing about fighting with stuff...
Not really. This is a discussion board. You were asked Dhamma-related questions regarding some statements you made. If you are not willing to discuss what you say, you might want to reconsider making such statements.

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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:stuff people did not say or even remotely imply
Didn't you say:
tiltbillings wrote:"So, does nibbana exists if there are no awakened individuals?"
That was a question, not a statement of my position, asked of you in response to and looking for clarication of what you said in that other thread.
and didn't you say:
tiltbillings wrote:And thanks to meditation I fortunately do not have to worry about those pesky dhatu/elements thingies that don't exist
And the context for this statement was in response to your saying that nibbana is not an existent thing, though your language seemed to suggest otherwise.
Further, didn't you quote (imply):
"we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" - Jake Davis
Which you have taken as saying something far differently than what it is, in fact, saying.
tiltbillings wrote:Yes, what about it?
Just answer the questions put forth in that post, if you can.
There is nothing to answer. The quotes you gave do not address what I have said, which is why I countered with a question. You seem to be assuming that that I am stating that there is not an "external reality" and that what I am advocating is some sort of radical idealism, which is, of course, not the case.
About the "intellectual consciousness", it was not my locution, but Jake Davis' locution, posted, linked and put into discussion by yourself. Since it came from you, go ahead to define it.
You are correct about that: "We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. "And your response: "Asserting they are mind-made or "cannot exist apart from intellectual consciousness" as Jake Davis claims is 'intellectual creationism' or clinging to intellect" is not what Davis is saying. It is what you are reading into what is being said.
nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to have this thing about fighting with stuff...
Not really. This is a discussion board. You were asked Dhamma-related questions regarding some statements you made. If you are not willing to discuss what you say, you might want to reconsider making such statements.
I have no problem with discussing what is put forth, but you quote a bunch texts, but you do not tell us what you are actually trying to say with them and how they address what you think I am saying. I cannot read your mind, but if you put your words out there explaining what the text are supposed to be saying in response to my position, I will have something to say about them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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manas
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by manas »

nibbuti wrote: and didn't you say:
tiltbillings wrote:"we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" - Jake Davis
Hi nibbuti

Regarding the above statement, maybe consider this: the writing you see right now, and the keyboard your fingertips type on and touch, appear to be 'out there' - and, yes, I do admit that they most likely are 'in reality' - but, according to neuroscience, the entire experience - the script you are reading, the touch of the keyboard on your fingers - is actually taking place deep inside your brain, in total physical darkness, reassembled from nerve impulses that were tranmitted there. Actual objects are out there, yes. But, the only way we can know them is via that reconstruction in the brain. (Please note, by saying this I am not agreeing with most scientists' mechanistic notion of consciousness as actually 'arising' from certain combinations of matter; I rather see the brain as a kind of 'physical mind-body interface' - constructed from matter, but able to interface with mind, which is immaterial - but that's another story.)

That's my take on this, anyway, it might not be what Jake Davis was getting at...but I hope it was of assistance
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nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

manas wrote:the entire experience - the script you are reading, the touch of the keyboard on your fingers - is actually taking place deep inside your brain, in total physical darkness, reassembled from nerve impulses that were tranmitted there.

Actual objects are out there, yes. But, the only way we can know them is via that reconstruction in the brain.
Thanks for the assistance, manas.

Now the Buddha taught there is body/form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, which are conditioned phenomena; there is the seen, the heard, the sensed, etc. In short, there is the 'all' (S 35.23).

Are you suggesting that the sense objects are produced by brain/mind, i.e. 'internal'?

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manas
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by manas »

nibbuti wrote:
manas wrote:the entire experience - the script you are reading, the touch of the keyboard on your fingers - is actually taking place deep inside your brain, in total physical darkness, reassembled from nerve impulses that were tranmitted there.

Actual objects are out there, yes. But, the only way we can know them is via that reconstruction in the brain.
Thanks for the assistance, manas.

Now the Buddha taught there is body/form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, which are conditioned phenomena; there is the seen, the heard, the sensed, etc. In short, there is the 'all' (S 35.23).

Are you suggesting that the sense objects are produced by brain/mind, i.e. 'internal'?
No, I am suggesting that the experience of these sense objects is internal.

metta
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

manas wrote:]

No, I am suggesting that the experience of these sense objects is internal.
And that is the point of Davis' statement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

manas wrote:No, I am suggesting that the experience of these sense objects is internal.
Thanks for your reply. Now conscious experience too is conditioned, and whatever is conditioned will pass away.

Is impermanence & the natural forces that promote decay 'internal', taking place inside the brain/mind?

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manas
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by manas »

nibbuti wrote:
manas wrote:No, I am suggesting that the experience of these sense objects is internal.
Thanks for your reply. Now conscious experience too is conditioned, and whatever is conditioned will pass away.

Is impermanence & the natural forces that promote decay 'internal', taking place inside the brain/mind?

:anjali:

Tilt will be able to either correct or expand on this, but as I understand it, it's the same again; however the law is, external, internal, or both, our experience of it is internal.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by detrop »

manas wrote:Regarding the above statement, maybe consider this: the writing you see right now, and the keyboard your fingertips type on and touch, appear to be 'out there' - and, yes, I do admit that they most likely are 'in reality' - but, according to neuroscience, the entire experience - the script you are reading, the touch of the keyboard on your fingers - is actually taking place deep inside your brain, in total physical darkness, reassembled from nerve impulses that were tranmitted there. Actual objects are out there, yes. But, the only way we can know them is via that reconstruction in the brain. (Please note, by saying this I am not agreeing with most scientists' mechanistic notion of consciousness as actually 'arising' from certain combinations of matter; I rather see the brain as a kind of 'physical mind-body interface' - constructed from matter, but able to interface with mind, which is immaterial - but that's another story.)
Hello,

to say that experience takes place "within the brain" doesn't sound right to me. Firstly, the experience of "other" people cannot be found at all, neither in their brains or elsewhere. Secondly, "my own" experience doesn't appear as "something" that is contained "within" another "thing", be it a brain or anything else. So if I want to use the term "experience", I am left with only one of it - no plural of "experience" can be found (it can only be assumed). The distinction between "internal" and "external" can only be made with regard to things but not with regard to the very experience that "offers" these things in the first place. Strictly speaking, no "experience" (as a thing) can be found, but only things. And if we name these things, we end up with the All (i.e. eye and forms, ear and sounds etc.).

That's the way I would describe it in the moment.

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Re: khandhas and such

Post by ancientbuddhism »

“Thus he abides observing the body (…sensations … mind … mind-states) internallyexternally (ajjhattaṃ vā … bahiddhā vā).”

MN. 10 (Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta)
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

manas wrote:
Is impermanence & the natural forces that promote decay 'internal', taking place inside the brain/mind?
Tilt will be able to either correct or expand on this, but as I understand it, it's the same again; however the law is, external, internal, or both, our experience of it is internal.
Hi manas.

So far, neither you, Tilt, nor Jake Davis has corrected or expanded on this, and how could you?

Tilt has said before:

"It is all a matter of the all [i.e. the senses, eye & forms etc], of what a dhamma is"
"The point of practice is .. [sense] experience".

You, manas, have stated:

"the entire [sense] experience .. is actually taking place deep inside your brain"
"however the law is .. our experience of it is internal"

Jake Davis said:
... namarupa namarupa ... :woohoo:

The senses are 'internal', but the entire experience is not 'internal', particularly sense and mind-objects (the "know") are 'external':
"'The six internal media (ajjhattikāni āyatanāni) should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. 'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the first sextet.

"'The six external media (bāhirāni āyatanāni) should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the mind-objects-medium. 'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet."
- MN 148
Such as Nibbana:
There is, bhikkhus, that base (tadāyatanaṃ) where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering. - Ud 8.1
Also, the 'all' that Jake Davis and Tilt eagerly put forward describes the range of sense experience (as the Buddha pointed out at the end of Sabba Sutta), but not the quality or nature of experience:

Without mentioning impermanence (anicca), unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) and non-self (anatta), it does not contain anything that can lead to liberation.

Therefore, it is at best incomplete Dhamma, because Buddha taught the point of all Dhamma practise is liberation:
"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"
- AN 7.79
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote: . . .
Again, you seem to be arguing with yourself -- or with what you imagine is being said -- here. You can declare yourself the winner of this debate, but I have no interest in wasting time with trying to discuss anything with you here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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