khandhas and such

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nibbuti
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khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

[Moderator note: This has been spun off from http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]
tiltbillings wrote:
Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

"…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).


STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1. http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jake Davis seems to be all entangled in 'namarupa'.

:jawdrop:
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

"…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).


STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1. http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jake Davis seems to be all entangled in 'namarupa'.
Not at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:Not at all.
:jumping:
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not at all.
:jumping:
Do you actually have anything of any substance to say?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:Do you actually have anything of any substance to say?
Because you asked nicely, Tilt.

Since there is over-emphasising namarupa ("psychological personality"), there is a misunderstanding Dependent Origination as some kind of creationism of the world, like the Creator God of the Christians except it's the mind, while the Buddha taught DO with an emphasis on the 'Mass of Suffering'.

:smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do you actually have anything of any substance to say?
Because you asked nicely, Tilt.

Jake Davis draws from quotes of the Buddha, but since he is over-emphasising namarupa, there is a misunderstanding Dependent Origination as some kind of creationism of the world, like the Creator God of the Christians except it's the mind, while the Buddha taught DO with an emphasis on the 'Mass of Suffering'.
And since you replied in a civil manner, I'll reply. Davis is certainly not advocating anything such as "Dependent Origination as some kind of creationism of the world, like the Creator God of the Christians except it's the mind, while the Buddha taught DO with an emphasis on the 'Mass of Suffering'."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:Davis is certainly not advocating anything such as "Dependent Origination as some kind of creationism of the world, like the Creator God of the Christians except it's the mind, while the Buddha taught DO with an emphasis on the 'Mass of Suffering'."
Thanks for sharing your view. I tend to disagree.
we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness - Jake Davis
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Davis is certainly not advocating anything such as "Dependent Origination as some kind of creationism of the world, like the Creator God of the Christians except it's the mind, while the Buddha taught DO with an emphasis on the 'Mass of Suffering'."
Thanks for sharing your view. I tend to disagree.
we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness - Jake Davis
And from a stand point of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas this is wrong how?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:
we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness - Jake Davis
And from a stand point of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas this is wrong how?
It is wrong from a stand point of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas, in that there is a 'body' apart from moments of intellectual consciousness.

Things such as a body are conditioned. But unless they're mental phenomena, such as feelings, perceptions and thoughts, they're not mind-made. Asserting they are mind-made or "cannot exist apart from intellectual consciousness" as Jake Davis claims is 'intellectual creationism' or clinging to intellect.

It is not mind-made but just the way it is. The Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas point out:
Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty of a self...

"The nose is empty of a self...

"The tongue is empty of a self...

"The body is empty of a self..

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty." - SN 35.85
"'The six internal media (ayatana) should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. 'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the first sextet.

"'The six external media (ayatana) should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the mind-objects-medium. 'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet - MN 148
“When, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is skilled in the elements, skilled in the bases, skilled in dependent origination, skilled in what is possible and what is impossible, in that way he can be called a wise man and an inquirer.”

(THE ELEMENTS)

“But, venerable sir, in what way can a bhikkhu be called skilled in the elements?”

“There are, Ānanda, these eighteen elements: the eye element, the form element, the eye-consciousness element; the ear element, the sound element, the ear-consciousness element; the nose element, the odor element, the nose-consciousness element; the tongue element, the flavor element, the tongue-consciousness element; the body element, the tangible element, the body-consciousness element; the mind element, the mind-object element, the mind-consciousness element. When he knows and sees these eighteen elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.” - MN 115
"Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.

"The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All phenomena are not-self." - AN 3.134
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness - Jake Davis
And from a stand point of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas this is wrong how?
It is wrong from a stand point of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali suttas, in that there is a 'body' apart from moments of intellectual consciousness.
Do you experience this body apart "from moments of intellectual consciousness?"
It is not mind-made but just the way it is.
He is not saying it is mind made. He is talking about experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:Do you experience this body apart "from moments of intellectual consciousness?"
This is not a valid question.

But when asleep, in deep meditation or dead, this body does not vanish magically (or does not become nonexistent) just because no one is intellectualizing and cognizing about it.
tiltbillings wrote:He is not saying it is mind made. He is talking about experience.
Sure, but saying "we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" and saying "it is mind-made" amounts to the same, whether there is experience or not.

:smile:
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

Upon Tilt's kind request, I am reposting this here:
tiltbillings wrote:If there where at this time no awakened individuals, where is nibbana?

So, where is nibbana when there are no arahants?

So, you are saying that nibbana is a self-existant thing that exists independent of awakened individuals.

So, after the arahant dies, where does the nibbana go?

So, does nibbana exists if there are no awakened individuals?

So, you are not are advocating an idea of nibbana that exists even if there are no ariya?
Hi Tilt.

In Theravada Buddhism, there are:

rupa dhammas or rupa kaya (physical phenomena)
nama dhammas or nama kaya (mental phenomena)
asankhata dhamma / dhatu (unconditioned element = Nibbana)

If Nibbana was dependent on the human mind, shouldn't it fit into nama dhamma, which it doesn't?

:?:
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do you experience this body apart "from moments of intellectual consciousness?"
This is not a valid question, because 'experience' mostly coincides with intellectual consciousness.
Declaring it not valid does not make it not valid. The point of practice is obviously not in the mostly, but, rather, in the non-intellectual experience: In the seen, just the seen, etc.
But when asleep, in deep meditation or dead, this body does not vanish magically (or does not become nonexistent) just because no one is intellectualizing and cognizing about it.
That is all very nice; however, the point of the Dhamma practice is the direct experience of mind/body process in its interdependent rise and fall.
tiltbillings wrote:He is not saying it is mind made. He is talking about experience.
Sure, but saying "we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness" or saying "it is mind-made" amounts to the same, whether there is experience or not. [/quote]Amounts to the same thing? Not at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by tiltbillings »

nibbuti wrote: In Theravada Buddhism, there are:

rupa dhammas or rupa kaya (physical phenomena)
nama dhammas or nama kaya (mental phenomena)
asankhata dhamma / dhatu (unconditioned element = Nibbana)

If Nibbana was dependent on the human mind, shouldn't it fit into nama dhamma, which it doesn't?
The issue here is what is meant by dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: khandhas and such

Post by nibbuti »

tiltbillings wrote:The issue here is what is meant by dhamma.
How so?

You asked "So, does nibbana exists if there are no awakened individuals?". In return, I'm asking "If Nibbana was dependent on the human mind, shouldn't it fit into nama dhamma (mental phenomena), which it doesn't?"

:?:
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