is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.
Accept I never made that claim.

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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.
Accept I never made that claim.
Your claim: I would't associate Goenka centres with "vipsana movement", they act and teach pretty much in isolation. Do clarify.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.
It really is very clear. They act and teach pretty much in isolation.
A movement is not an umbrella.

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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.
It really is very clear. They act and teach pretty much in isolation.
A movement is not an umbrella.
And the others do not? Goenka is very much part of the over all vipassana meditation movement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:27 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.
It really is very clear.
A movement is not an umbrella.
Vipassana is the umbrella term which catches different systems.
like the messianic movement of Jesus is not the same as another messianic movement, yet they share similarities which would enable them to fall under the messianic umbrella term.
This is the same as a boarder collie and a German Shepard being classed as "dogs."
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:05 pm

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 pm

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
That is one group of many.
There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.
how are they synonymous?
We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.
both the movement and the technique of meditation of body sweeping?
I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).
as the practice of insight?
sure but that would require a massive consensus.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299[/quote]
and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:07 pm

"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"
Cittasanto wrote: and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by badscooter » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"
Cittasanto wrote: and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
what does this have to do with the main stream of vipassana??

:focus:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"
Cittasanto wrote: and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
That is your projection. Pointless, but since when was a personal observation relevant?!

But I did ask you some questions!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Billymac29 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"
Cittasanto wrote: and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
what does this have to do with the main stream of vipassana??

:focus:
:anjali:

PS I was responding to Cittasanto.

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:51 pm

Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for the reminder of that interesting thread about Goenka, IMS, etc
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I would differentiate particular teachers appearing to be isolationist from defining what their practice is. One can find isolationist tendencies in many places...

Ven Analayo comments on these tendencies in this talk at 46:30
The Basic Dynamics of Insight Meditation
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/208/talk/2749/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is something I don't understand, why not only advanced meditators, but even meditation teachers, think that what they do is the only right thing, and everybody else is wrong [laughs]. It seems to me like kindergarten: "What I got is better than yours, nyah, nyah!".
Furthermore, most teachers I am familiar with would require some consistency of practice if one wanted to do extended retreats. This is explicitly spelled out in the case of Goenka centres, since they have chosen to have a policy to assure consistency around the world. In other environments, where the local teacher is in sole charge, it would most likely be on a case-by-case basis.

:anjali:
Mike

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:59 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
That is your projection. Pointless
It is my opinion.
Cittasanto wrote: But I did ask you some questions!
I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
That is your projection. Pointless
It is my opinion.
point?
but do look up argument
Cittasanto wrote: But I did ask you some questions!
I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.
only if you do not let it; and that is your choice.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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