Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
Everything?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by danieLion »

alan wrote:What is the Pali word for intuitive awareness?
I don't know if there is but I know this is Reverend Sumedho's translation of sati sampajañña.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by danieLion »

alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
The one that used the expression intuitive awareness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by danieLion »

From the link Tilt provided:
Reverend Sumedho wrote:Sometimes Theravàda comes across as annihilationism. You get into this ‘no soul, no God, no self’ fixation, this attachment to a view. Or is the Buddha’s teaching there to be investigated and explored? We are not trying to confirm somebody’s view about the Pàli Canon, but using the Pàli Canon to explore our own experience. It’s a different way of looking at it. If you investigate this a lot, you begin to really see the difference between pure consciousness and when self arises. It’s not hazy or fuzzy — “Is there self now?” — that kind of thing; it’s a clear knowing.
Intutive Awareness, pp. 136-138
danieLion
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
The one that used the expression intuitive awareness.
Thanks. That helps me comprehend things a little more clearly. ;)
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by alan »

Doesn't prove the point. I stand by the original post.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Doesn't prove the point. I stand by the original post.
What point?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Bakmoon
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by Bakmoon »

To me at least, the suttas are a kind of measuring stick. When we hear various teachings, we check them against the suttas to see if they are consistent. If they are, then that teacher is safe to learn from, but if they contradict the suttas, it should raise a red flag and tell us that we should exercise some caution with that particular teacher.

I don't think it is a healthy attitude however to insist that everything a teacher says has to be derivable directly from the suttas as of course, the suttas don't have a lot of detail. Consistency should be our standard, not derivability.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Bakmoon wrote:To me at least, the suttas are a kind of measuring stick. When we hear various teachings, we check them against the suttas to see if they are consistent. If they are, then that teacher is safe to learn from, but if they contradict the suttas, it should raise a red flag and tell us that we should exercise some caution with that particular teacher.

I don't think it is a healthy attitude however to insist that everything a teacher says has to be derivable directly from the suttas as of course, the suttas don't have a lot of detail. Consistency should be our standard, not derivability.
Good post, but your last sentence seems to contradict your first paragraph?
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by Bakmoon »

porpoise wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:To me at least, the suttas are a kind of measuring stick. When we hear various teachings, we check them against the suttas to see if they are consistent. If they are, then that teacher is safe to learn from, but if they contradict the suttas, it should raise a red flag and tell us that we should exercise some caution with that particular teacher.

I don't think it is a healthy attitude however to insist that everything a teacher says has to be derivable directly from the suttas as of course, the suttas don't have a lot of detail. Consistency should be our standard, not derivability.
Good post, but your last sentence seems to contradict your first paragraph?
What I mean is this: A lot of times, the suttas don't give quite enough detail on how to do things for someone to be able to just pick up the suttas and practice, so it should be okay for us to go to a teacher and ask them for more detailed advice on how to practice something. When we do, we should make sure what they say doesn't contradict the suttas, but we can't ask for them to prove from the suttas every last detail of their advice because the suttas don't always give that level of detail. As long as nothing contradicts, you should be okay.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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mikenz66
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by mikenz66 »

Bakmoon wrote: What I mean is this: A lot of times, the suttas don't give quite enough detail on how to do things for someone to be able to just pick up the suttas and practice, so it should be okay for us to go to a teacher and ask them for more detailed advice on how to practice something.
It's more than OK, it's probably essential for most of us, and clearly recommended by the Buddha: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bakmoon wrote: When we do, we should make sure what they say doesn't contradict the suttas, but we can't ask for them to prove from the suttas every last detail of their advice because the suttas don't always give that level of detail. As long as nothing contradicts, you should be okay.
Sure, but I'd be careful about too much looking for contradictions until you've actually practised with a teacher for a while. In my experience, understanding what the suttas is built on practice, rather than the other way around.

:anjali:
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by nibbuti »

mikenz66 wrote:In my experience, understanding what the suttas is built on practice, rather than the other way around.
In my experience, the suttas are a meditation guide, so practise is both way round (like a feedback loop).

If any likable teacher were enough to teach Dhamma (rather than only point out what personal hindrance may be the strongest), the Buddha wouldn't have advised to check and re-check what is taught against the suttas.

:toilet:
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mikenz66
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Nibbuti,

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. A feedback loop is a good way to explain it.

My point was that it would be a mistake to jump to conclusions too quickly about what exactly the Buddha, teachers, ancient, or modern, are saying, without trying it out.

Personally, I have found having good teachers to give guidance essential. I am impressed that some can extract enough information from the suttas alone to practice effectively. I've not met such a practitioner in person.

:anjali:
Mike
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