Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

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Annapurna
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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Annapurna » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:40 am

pmwhewitt wrote:I consider myself a semi-fan if you will. I don't actually have any of his records but have listened quite regularly to him on Spotify since it came out and borrowed my dads CDs occasionally. Nonetheless Michael Jackson is someone I have had an interest in for a while, I have always felt a lot of sympathy for him and vehemently supported him during the trials.

He was clearly a mentally unstable person, but on the other hand he was obviously quite remarkably talented. Sadly a lot of wicked people realised this and so used Michael's naivete and immaturity for the own ends, the amount of hangers-on of this kind multiplied in the last few years of his life and I have no doubt that these people are solely, albeit indirectly, responsible for his death.

As a child he was beaten and bullied severely as a child by his father in order to rake in millions of dollars when the Jacksons became stars. He suffered with quite severe acne in his teenage years which led to much mockery in the press and even some insults thrown his way from members of the public.

He became nothing more than a trophy to Sony Records in the end, who were leaving him enough money to temporarily settle his debts, but ultimately were only using his financial woes in order to eventually receive the publishing rights to the Lennon-McCartney catalogue.

I have no doubt in my mind that he did not do what he was accused of. He never had a childhood and I honestly feel this left him as a ten-year old boy in a mans body. But not just any mans body, but a man with a world of pressure and expectation on his shoulders. How many ten-year old children can you think of that could take all the bullying and mockery he has received in his life?

By the end, he didn't even have a say in his own life. The Nation of Islam had tightened their grip on him and even though a lung disease had ravaged his voice, he was forced to do a party for a Russian billionaire on a private yacht, and then after being convinced to do ten-dates at The O2 Arena in London, he later found out he had been tricked into doing fifty. I think it was obvious he couldn't do it.

Whether a fan or not, it's not totally fair in my opinion to call his death "just another death". This is the unspectacular end to a prodigious child bullied and beaten and taken advantage of by leeches who used him for their own ends. He deserves the compassion he never got in life.
Wonderful post, full of compassion and trying to really understand a person, like a parent would, non-judgemental, just accepting, and loving.

Let's take a look at this please? :smile:
He was clearly a mentally unstable person
I ...don't know.

Ok. He was an artist. Singer, dancer, poet. Right? He was of light built, not a massive masculine appearance like Muhammad Ali,right?

So here lies one important root why mostly fellow men didn't take him quite as seriously .

He was occupied with what are largely considered "feminine" arts: Dance, song, poetry.

Ok, men do it too,but the superbowl or rugby guys are something else, you see?

Now, he also possessed a rather delicate facial beauty and gracious slender limbs with great coordination.

From the body, an experienced doctor can draw conclusions about the psyche and mind,and overall health.

He was, imo,a pure Vata type in the Old Indian healing art Ayurveda.

A Vata type is slender, light bones, gracious, often highly talented in arts or rhythmic sports like dance.

When in harmony,they are lively, happy, inspired and inspiring, creative, charismatic.

When stressed,they lose appetite, weight and sleep suffer from body pains, and become frail and weak, shadows of their former energy.

We know Michael Jackson from both sides.

He took painkillers and sleepingpills, to be able to perform on stage the next day, week, months...

This is incredibly hard for a sensitive Vata artist.

Therefore, with your approval, I hope, I would say he was sensitive, and stressed, even ill, but not mentally unstable.
taken advantage of by leeches who used him for their own ends. He deserves the compassion he never got in life.
:clap:

I'll be back later to ask you a few things, ok?

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:41 am

Greetings Annabel,
I'm really thinking hard about this now....

Why should I not take anybody seriously?
I hope you didn't take Michael Jackson's "crotch framing" seriously?

Let's be honest, that was pretty disturbing.

Image
No offense meant by asking, Ben, but don't you take anybody seriously?

I'm really thinking hard about this now....

Why should I not take anybody seriously?

What are the conditions for taking somebody seriously?

Metta, I think, includes all, and....don't I serve anybody with my knowledge, my generosity, my whole existence , my thoughts that are directed at others with loving kindness, like a good mother would love ALL her children equally, and not just the most impressing of those?

Likewise, if we realize that 'Michael Jackson' was our child before in a previous life, how can we not .... ? Anybody...?
I still think you're conflating respect, compassion and lovingkindness, as if they're one and the same thing. In the Dhamma, there is no Self, so exactly what do you respect?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Ben » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:02 pm

Thanks Retro
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by christopher::: » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:26 pm



Michael Jackson is gone. I hope folks will focus more on the positive work he left behind then the negative. He didn't start any wars or cut down rainforests. At times he seemed confused of his identity, seemed to be wrestling with his desires, which may have seemed like inner demons.

How many of us haven't walked that road at some time?

R.I.P.
:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by appicchato » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:01 pm

He was clearly a mentally unstable person
And so (to varying degrees, and given the 'right' circumstance(s)) are we all...(excluding the enlightened)...

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Annapurna » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:30 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Annabel,
I'm really thinking hard about this now....

Why should I not take anybody seriously?
I hope you didn't take Michael Jackson's "crotch framing" seriously?

Let's be honest, that was pretty disturbing.

Image
No offense meant by asking, Ben, but don't you take everybody seriously?

I'm really thinking hard about this now....

Why should I not take everybody seriously?

What are the conditions for taking somebody seriously?

Metta, I think, includes all, and....don't I serve anybody with my knowledge, my generosity, my whole existence , my thoughts that are directed at others with loving kindness, like a good mother would love ALL her children equally, and not just the most impressing of those?

Likewise, if we realize that 'Michael Jackson' was our child before in a previous life, how can we not .... ? Anybody...?
I still think you're conflating respect, compassion and lovingkindness, as if they're one and the same thing. In the Dhamma, there is no Self, so exactly what do you respect?

Metta,
Retro. :)
I hope you didn't take Michael Jackson's "crotch framing" seriously?

Let's be honest, that was pretty disturbing.
No, it wasn't! Do you conflate the role with the actor?

He did that on stage, it was part of the roles he played, portraying black street culture, that he didn't even belong to anymore! But was SELLING to those folks!

You cater to your customer!

Dear Retro, you seem to be a "nice white chap". Right?

Could it be the wilder Afro American culture seems "misbehaving" to you? "Grunts"...etc...

And dont forget, the anglosaxon nations, like America, are far more prudish than Europeans, btw.... I am European.

What could make an American blush could amuse a European, - unless you are from a conservative family.
Last edited by Annapurna on Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Annapurna » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:43 pm

I still think you're conflating respect, compassion and lovingkindness, as if they're one and the same thing. In the Dhamma, there is no Self, so exactly what do you respect?
You respect the sentient being, don't you?

By not respecting it, you make it suffer.

You have compassion with the sentient being.


By not having compassion you make it suffer.

You treat the sentient being with loving kindness.


By not treating it with loving kindness, you make it suffer.

HOW can one be present without the others, when they are all fingers of one hand, the hand of Dhamma? You want a whole hand, to help you up from the floor, not just a half-hearted little finger, don't you?

They all depend on each other. Ideally, they all come together, with all faculties intervowen, in an enlightened being.

All separation begins in the mind.

:buddha2:

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Journey » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:24 pm

Those that jump on this opportunity to follow the urge to find fault and spread dislike, seem (to me) to be as smitten with MJ as are his fans.
MJ was impermanent, his bad behavior - impermanent. He may not have been perfect, but dukkha arises from our own negative reactions, not from MJ. If you read the news that MJ is dead and the reaction is the urge to spread dislike about the things he did that you do not approve of, it means negativity is still deeply rooted.
Thank MJ for bringing this to light because as the Dhammapada teaches:

Easily seen are the faults of others,
Hard indeed to see are one's own
—Dhammapada 252-3

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by thecap » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:34 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Let's be honest, that was pretty disturbing.
I invite you to absolute self-honesty and self-forgiveness (or in Buddhist lingo "letting go"), for there is still aversion.
In the Dhamma, there is no Self, so exactly what do you respect?
Not-self is not equal to No-self.

As Buddhists, we respect all living beings.

With metta
Last edited by thecap on Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by DNS » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:54 pm

Annabel wrote: He was occupied with what are largely considered "feminine" arts: Dance, song, poetry.
Fashion too:

Image

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by DNS » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:56 pm

Just a few of some of the positive things MJ contributed to the world:

1. We are the World
2. USA for Africa
3. Man in the Mirror
4. Earth Song
5. Heal the World
6. Over $300 million donated to Black-American charities

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by christopher::: » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:04 pm

I watched the video for "Man in the Mirror" last week, for the first time... showed it to my students... very powerful...



Man In The Mirror
Michael Jackson

Ooh ooh ooh aah
Gotta make a change
For once in my life
It's gonna feel real good
Gonna make a difference
Gonna make it right

As I turned up the collar on
A favorite winter coat
This wind is blowin' my mind
I see the kids in the street
With not enough to eat
Who am I to be blind
Pretending not to see their needs

A summer's disregard
A broken bottle top
And a one man's soul
They follow each other
On the wind ya' know
'Cause they got nowhere to go
That's why I want you to know

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change, yey
Na na na, na na na, na na na na oh ho

I've been a victim of
A selfish kinda love
It's time that I realize
There are some with no home
Not a nickel to loan
Could it be really pretending that they're not alone

A willow deeply scarred
Somebody's broken heart
And a washed out dream
(Washed out dream)
They follow the pattern of the wind ya' see
'Cause they got no place to be
That's why I'm starting with me

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change
Last edited by christopher::: on Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Annapurna » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:10 pm

Journey wrote:Those that jump on this opportunity to follow the urge to find fault and spread dislike, seem (to me) to be as smitten with MJ as are his fans.
MJ was impermanent, his bad behavior - impermanent. He may not have been perfect, but dukkha arises from our own negative reactions, not from MJ. If you read the news that MJ is dead and the reaction is the urge to spread dislike about the things he did that you do not approve of, it means negativity is still deeply rooted.
Thank MJ for bringing this to light because as the Dhammapada teaches:

Easily seen are the faults of others,
Hard indeed to see are one's own

—Dhammapada 252-3
:thumbsup:

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Annapurna » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:21 pm

Christopher::: wrote:Michael Jackson is gone. I hope folks will focus more on the positive work he left behind then the negative. He didn't start any wars or cut down rainforests. At times he seemed confused of his identity, seemed to be wrestling with his desires, which may have seemed like inner demons.

How many of us haven't walked that road at some time?

R.I.P.
:heart:
:goodpost:


He protested against the rainforests being cut down, dolphins drowning in nets, seal babies getting skinned alive, elefant mothers and babies getting shot for their tusks, senseless wars, racial discrimination.

He reached so many more people and appealed to the highest in them than any of those who feel so high above him, yet having unprocessed stuff themselves, like aversion, bias and lack of understanding and affection.

How may of us haven't walked that road at some times?
Everybody does.

Read this:
From a mental health colleague:

"Michael Jackson was a highly sensitive kid and adult, chronically abused as a child and his whole life was about having his boundaries chronically violated in one sense or another.

Then as a major celebrity, virtual nonexistence of privacy and defense from the boundary challenges, hence the myriad forms of "masking"" and escape, and transformation urges.

Possibilities for intimacy with any adult: zero. Consequent loneliness: massive.

Since intimacy was not possible, probably sex wasn't of much interest, except as convenient source of procreation. The only people in his perception to not violate him: children. For him, everyone else was a predator.

Emotional escape: the simple world view of a child, and his own artistic creativity, behaving like a child, and drugs.

Little opportunity for keeping within some form of normal lines from receiving environmental feedback, so his own internal reality was its own test, going wherever it went.

Sad guy. Incredible music and dancing, I loved his stuff. Correction: do love his stuff."

May he have come back soon and have an auspicious rebirth. He was a truly remarkable human being.


Metta,

Nurseholistic
:bow:
Last edited by Annapurna on Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michael Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009)

Post by Journey » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:24 pm

christopher::: wrote:I watched the video for "Man in the Mirror" last week, for the first time... showed it to my students... very powerful...



Man In The Mirror
Michael Jackson

Ooh ooh ooh aah
Gotta make a change
For once in my life
It's gonna feel real good
Gonna make a difference
Gonna make it right

As I turned up the collar on
A favorite winter coat
This wind is blowin' my mind
I see the kids in the street
With not enough to eat
Who am I to be blind
Pretending not to see their needs

A summer's disregard
A broken bottle top
And a one man's soul
They follow each other
On the wind ya' know
'Cause they got nowhere to go
That's why I want you to know

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change, yey
Na na na, na na na, na na na na oh ho

I've been a victim of
A selfish kinda love
It's time that I realize
There are some with no home
Not a nickel to loan
Could it be really pretending that they're not alone

A willow deeply scarred
Somebody's broken heart
And a washed out dream
(Washed out dream)
They follow the pattern of the wind ya' see
'Cause they got no place to be
That's why I'm starting with me

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer


If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change
:bow:

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