Is there any proof that the suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?Sylvester wrote:danieLion wrote:The suttas qualify as a voice/voices of another/others, right?Sylvester wrote:Hi Dave
I should explain my resort to AN 2.126 against a liberal reading of AN 3.65.
It would be a "gamble", if we discounted the voice of another as a necessary condition. I take the more conservative reading of the meaning of "condition" (paccaya) in AN 2.126 to mean a necessary condition, rather than a sufficient condition, for Stream Entry. As a necessary condition, the presence of the Buddha's voice is no guarantee that the auditor would make the breakthrough to the Dhamma.
Yes, I believe so.
Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
they are the recorded teachings of the buddha or disciple so yes they are be definition a record of that voice and thus count as.
there is no strict definition of what a voice of another is.
there is no strict definition of what a voice of another is.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
Hi Charles
What do you think of AN 5.26?
There is no ATI translation but you can refer to this -
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 6-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compare that against BB's translation, where a key difference lies in BB's translation of a knotty line that reads as "he experiences inspiration" versus Piya's translation based on the Commentary (see BB's long end-note 990).
What do you think of AN 5.26?
There is no ATI translation but you can refer to this -
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 6-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compare that against BB's translation, where a key difference lies in BB's translation of a knotty line that reads as "he experiences inspiration" versus Piya's translation based on the Commentary (see BB's long end-note 990).
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
I don't have a copy of BB's translation of the Anguttara. Which of part of Piya's translation corresponds to BB's "he experiences inspiration"?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
I don't have a copy on me either right now
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
The Pali in question is -
Yet, Piya also makes this interesting observation -
PS - I just noticed that BB also took the liberty to render another part of this sutta in an easier English idiom, to break the repetition. Hee hee.
BB translates it as -tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthapaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca
Piya's very idiomatic translation compresses the 2 relative clauses into an easier "English" idiom that reads -...in just that way he experiences inspiration in the meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma
You can see from BB's notes citing the Commentarial gloss on the clause, that Piya probably followed the Commentary.he knows the goal and he knows the Dharma [he knows the spirit of the Dharma and the
letter of the Dharma]
(alternative in parentheses)
Yet, Piya also makes this interesting observation -
BB makes the very same observation in note 990. Odd that Piya, having noticed this as well, decided to go with the Commentary.Each of these exercises should lead one to “knowing the goal and the Dharma” [“knowing the spirit of the
Dharma and the letter of the Dharma”] (attha,paisavedī ca hoti dhamma,paisavedī ca), that is, understanding that true purpose of the Teaching and the wisdom it entails.
The importance of the interesting phrase—“knowing the goal and the Dharma”—is found in at least
four other discourses, such as the Mahā Gopālaka Sutta (M 33), where the two terms—attha,veda and
dhamma,veda—appear in the same context, that of listening to the Dharma:
1
Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu Tathāgata-p,pavedite Here, bhikshus, a monk, when the Dharma
dhamma,vinaye desiyamāne and Vinaya of the Tathagata is being taught,
labhati attha,veda, gains inspired knowledge in the goal,
labhati dhamma,veda, gains inspired knowledge in the Dharma,
labhati dhammûpasahita pāmujja… gains joy connected with Dharma;…
(M 33.10/1:221,80, 33.22/1:224,2-3)
It is interesting to note that veda, which usually means “knowledge,” here has the sense of “joy or
inspiration” connected with spiritual knowing. As pointed out elsewhere,
2
attha,veda (“inspired
knowledge in the goal”) refers to a clear understanding of the purpose of the spiritual life, that is,
awakening: this is the quality the streamwinner who is a faith-follower (saddhā’nusārī).
3
In this sutta, this
refers to one who “knows the goal” (attha,paisavedī). Dhamma,veda (“inspired knowledge in the
Dharma”) refers to a deep understanding of reality, which characterizes the stream-winner who is a truthfollower (dhammânusārī).
4
In this sutta, this is one who “knows the Dharma” (dhamma,paisavedī).
PS - I just noticed that BB also took the liberty to render another part of this sutta in an easier English idiom, to break the repetition. Hee hee.
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
Thanks for your time Sylvester. This is very helpful.
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
So does "gaining inspiration in the meaning and ...the Dhamma" designate that, whether sadha- or dhamma-nusari, that differential is specifically said to become blended in the stream-entrant?
I had this thought that the 'dvenusari' were each approaching the seeing of paticcasamuppada in one or another way (forward or reverse, arising or cessation), while the sotapanna saw the whole shebang.
I had this thought that the 'dvenusari' were each approaching the seeing of paticcasamuppada in one or another way (forward or reverse, arising or cessation), while the sotapanna saw the whole shebang.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
I'm not sure Dave. The 2 who have entered the course of rightness that leads to Stream Entry have not yet personally seen This-That Conditionality. I'm still studing the Pali and both translations to see how they dovetail with the Follower typologies.