zen masters...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: zen masters...

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
That sounded more like a lashing than a whack.
No, just a simple, unexpected whack.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: zen masters...

Post by Dan74 »

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: what is the problem?
Your aggressivity ? :namaste:
He might just be a frustrated zen master... :spy:
_/|\_
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Sambojjhanga
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Re: zen masters...

Post by Sambojjhanga »

alan... wrote:i don't doubt that many of these masters deeply understood buddhism and possibly were even enlightened. i really dig zen and have read a LOT of zen literature, from tang dynasty masters works to dogen all the way up to shunryu suzuki and dt suzuki. i have trained zen at a zen temple and gone to retreats and loved everything about it for the most part. so don't think i'm hating or anything, zen really is wonderful.

that being said,

what is up with zen masters in history (and today i suppose) drinking alcohol, sleeping with women, beating people up, and not losing their status of being accepted as a master with a great understanding of satori and the dharma???

correct me if i'm wrong but if a bhikkhu in the buddhas time or even today in the theravada tradition was well respected and thought of as a stream enterer or higher and then started getting wasted on booze, got married and started beating people up, wouldn't they generally be understood to have fallen away from the dhamma at best or at worst to have been total frauds in the first place? i recall one sutta (somewhere in the vinaya i believe) in which the buddha created a new rule, because a bhikkhu slept with his own wife, that bhikkhus could not do this, so i'm fairly confident that i'm right in this regard.

asking a zen person this will get a reply such as: "that's just zen. all things are one, non dual, so sleeping with women is zen, so is beating people up."

now i'm wondering what theravada people say about this?
I would recommend avoiding any teacher whom you don't both trust and respect.

Metta

:anjali:
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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DAWN
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Re: zen masters...

Post by DAWN »

Dan74 wrote:
DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: what is the problem?
Your aggressivity ? :namaste:
He might just be a frustrated zen master... :spy:
When there is pain it must be healed. IMO.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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tiltbillings
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Re: zen masters...

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: what is the problem?
Your aggressivity ? :namaste:
He might just be a frustrated zen master... :spy:
Friustrated with the incessant unitelligent questions from his students who should be studying the Dhamma far more carefully than they are doing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
dude
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Re: zen masters...

Post by dude »

Sambojjhanga wrote:
alan... wrote:i don't doubt that many of these masters deeply understood buddhism and possibly were even enlightened. i really dig zen and have read a LOT of zen literature, from tang dynasty masters works to dogen all the way up to shunryu suzuki and dt suzuki. i have trained zen at a zen temple and gone to retreats and loved everything about it for the most part. so don't think i'm hating or anything, zen really is wonderful.

that being said,

what is up with zen masters in history (and today i suppose) drinking alcohol, sleeping with women, beating people up, and not losing their status of being accepted as a master with a great understanding of satori and the dharma???

correct me if i'm wrong but if a bhikkhu in the buddhas time or even today in the theravada tradition was well respected and thought of as a stream enterer or higher and then started getting wasted on booze, got married and started beating people up, wouldn't they generally be understood to have fallen away from the dhamma at best or at worst to have been total frauds in the first place? i recall one sutta (somewhere in the vinaya i believe) in which the buddha created a new rule, because a bhikkhu slept with his own wife, that bhikkhus could not do this, so i'm fairly confident that i'm right in this regard.

asking a zen person this will get a reply such as: "that's just zen. all things are one, non dual, so sleeping with women is zen, so is beating people up."

now i'm wondering what theravada people say about this?
I would recommend avoiding any teacher whom you don't both trust and respect.

Metta

:anjali:

That's how I see it too.
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Dan74
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Re: zen masters...

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:Friustrated with the incessant unitelligent questions from his students who should be studying the Dhamma far more carefully than they are doing.
"...lulled to sleep by the sound of our own voices, our keystrokes, our narratives and dreams..."
_/|\_
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tiltbillings
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Re: zen masters...

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Friustrated with the incessant unitelligent questions from his students who should be studying the Dhamma far more carefully than they are doing.
"...lulled to sleep by the sound of our own voices, our keystrokes, our narratives and dreams..."
A well placed kyōsaku iswhat is needed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: zen masters...

Post by Dan74 »

Yes, I was thinking the same, but all I have is a small chugpi, which makes a loud rap when struck but inflicts no pain...
92002-2.jpg
92002-2.jpg (28.24 KiB) Viewed 3763 times
Pretty wimpy, eh?

On a serious note, I think some of us (ahem... ahem... eg me) do need a spiritual elder to occasionally (metaphorically) whack us between the ears for the stupidities that we do, how many are sufficiently mature to do it ourselves? And how often we don't even notice??
_/|\_
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retrofuturist
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Re: zen masters...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:On a serious note, I think some of us (ahem... ahem... eg me) do need a spiritual elder to occasionally (metaphorically) whack us between the ears for the stupidities that we do, how many are sufficiently mature to do it ourselves? And how often we don't even notice??
I dunno... dukkha provides a pretty good whack in and of itself, and it only whacks us when we're not doing the samma (right) things.

Rahula's mirror is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan...
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Re: zen masters...

Post by alan... »

marc108 wrote:very simple... if he was beating people up or drinking, he simply was not enlightened.
according to the pali canon yes, exactly! that's what's so strange. yet some of these guys have amazing writings and teachings that have helped thousands learn the dharma... it's quite a puzzle. seems like beating people and therefore not enlightened would equal shoddy teachings but that's not always the case. linji for one had some really great stuff to say. but then there's other like ikkyu, for example, perhaps he tasted enlightenment for a moment when he heard the crow call but after that his life is a testament to NON enlightenment, yet he was still considered a "master"... puzzling indeed.
daverupa
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Re: zen masters...

Post by daverupa »

alan... wrote:according to the pali canon yes, exactly! that's what's so strange.
Not at all; they weren't using the pali canon.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
alan...
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Re: zen masters...

Post by alan... »

daverupa wrote:
alan... wrote:according to the pali canon yes, exactly! that's what's so strange.
Not at all; they weren't using the pali canon.

it's strange if you accept the buddhas teachings from the pali canon as authoritative: violence and booze equals non enlightenment. ten things an arahant cannot do, etc, etc.

i generally accept this and i think it's odd when i also feel that some of these zen masters had to have been enlightened. make more sense from that perspective?

regardless of what they used (mahayana sutras, teachings of contemporary masters of the time, etc.), if a master seems to be enlightened, but then uses violence, i'm wondering how could he be so insightful and seemingly enlightened and still be violent? and how could society accept this considering it's generally a non violent philosophy?

if you don't accept the pali canon ideas then it doesn't really matter. without those guidelines this discussion is pretty much null and void as the lotus sutra justifies violence and pretty much everything else if you stretch out the "skillful means" idea. from a mahayana standpoint it's all good. albeit the nonviolent aspect is still puzzling even considering the lotus sutra and what not...

this is why i posted this on a theravada forum, knowing zen doesn't use the pali canon from studying zen for many years (and common knowledge in buddhist circles) i assumed a zen forum would just give the zen explanation that i already know (skillful means). although they might give some ideas about chinese history, philosophy, and law that would clear things up a lot as well and perhaps that's what i should do.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: zen masters...

Post by m0rl0ck »

alan... wrote: but then there's other like ikkyu, for example, perhaps he tasted enlightenment for a moment when he heard the crow call but after that his life is a testament to NON enlightenment, yet he was still considered a "master"... puzzling indeed.
Well then i guess you would be the judge. Probably worthy of a tweet, this will come as a suprise to many no doubt.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
alan...
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Re: zen masters...

Post by alan... »

m0rl0ck wrote:
alan... wrote: but then there's other like ikkyu, for example, perhaps he tasted enlightenment for a moment when he heard the crow call but after that his life is a testament to NON enlightenment, yet he was still considered a "master"... puzzling indeed.
Well then i guess you would be the judge. Probably worthy of a tweet, this will come as a suprise to many no doubt.

? is this a jab at me or...? i don't believe we've even spoken before. kind of odd that you are addressing me this way. i don't even have a twitter account.

i have no idea what your comment means, considering there is no background between us perhaps this is a jab at my character based on my other threads? or you're mistaking me for someone who you speak to on twitter? bottom line though, from a pali canon perspective, ikkyu was definitively not an arahant. personally do i think he could have seen nibbana? yes absolutely. some of his poetry i believe shows a deep understanding of reality at points, glimpses that were not permanent. however from the vinaya and sutta pitaka standards, he was not enlightened. he drank, slept around, and was generally a party animal. these are not characteristics of an arahant according to the suttas.

as i have already said though, from a mahayana, skillful means kind of perspective one could argue that he was enlightened.
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