on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11922
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:52 pm

alan... wrote: obviously the site administrator being behind this attitude means it is doomed to stay this way.
What is the basis for this assertion / borderline personal attack? I assume this is directed at me? I suppose this is "payback" for me daring to suggest that some might consider discussing jhanas with their teacher. I have no problem with you or anyone else discussing jhanas here or with others, especially when one does not have a teacher accessible; as I mentioned in several subsequent posts, it was just a suggestion that needs not to be taken or accepted. And it came from seeing how others have experiences discussing any kind of attainments including jhanas here and on other forums, even if the attainments and jhana are genuine. You placed several rolling eyes emoticons after my posts, which is understandable since I have written quite a bit on the Dhamma here, Dhamma Wiki, and other places. I have written a grand total of one tiny paragraph on my meditation experiences and jhanas and for that I have received numerous criticisms, complaints, etc. which is why I made that suggestion -- it was from years of experience in this thing, but again, it is not advice that is required to be taken.

In fact, I somewhat agree with you about the constant debunking of the Dhamma. It can be somewhat frustrating to constantly see new posts, new topics about how rebirth has no basis, or worse yet, that it was not taught by the Buddha, etc. You won't find any posts by me (you can check) debunking rebirth or the Buddha. I accept literal rebirth and accept that the Buddha taught literal rebirth as is clearly evident in the Suttas.

In addition to the other great posts above and Ben's mention of the Discovering Theravada sub-forum, we also have the "Classical Theravada" section where debunking is not allowed, where the standards are higher and the Pali Canon is considered authentic (for discussion purposes).

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:27 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
alan... wrote: obviously the site administrator being behind this attitude means it is doomed to stay this way.
What is the basis for this assertion / borderline personal attack? I assume this is directed at me? I suppose this is "payback" for me daring to suggest that some might consider discussing jhanas with their teacher. I have no problem with you or anyone else discussing jhanas here or with others, especially when one does not have a teacher accessible; as I mentioned in several subsequent posts, it was just a suggestion that needs not to be taken or accepted. And it came from seeing how others have experiences discussing any kind of attainments including jhanas here and on other forums, even if the attainments and jhana are genuine. You placed several rolling eyes emoticons after my posts, which is understandable since I have written quite a bit on the Dhamma here, Dhamma Wiki, and other places. I have written a grand total of one tiny paragraph on my meditation experiences and jhanas and for that I have received numerous criticisms, complaints, etc. which is why I made that suggestion -- it was from years of experience in this thing, but again, it is not advice that is required to be taken.

In fact, I somewhat agree with you about the constant debunking of the Dhamma. It can be somewhat frustrating to constantly see new posts, new topics about how rebirth has no basis, or worse yet, that it was not taught by the Buddha, etc. You won't find any posts by me (you can check) debunking rebirth or the Buddha. I accept literal rebirth and accept that the Buddha taught literal rebirth as is clearly evident in the Suttas.


In addition to the other great posts above and Ben's mention of the Discovering Theravada sub-forum, we also have the "Classical Theravada" section where debunking is not allowed, where the standards are higher and the Pali Canon is considered authentic (for discussion purposes).
what? no that was in reply to ben, isn't he a site administrator? i wasn't attacking him either. it's not even really that big of a deal to me, the playfulness in my writing must not have come accross. SORRY GUYS!!! :hug:

and the rolling eyes, also not supposed to be super harsh. just a response since i felt like i was being blown off when asking about a standard buddhist practice on a buddhist forum and basically i was told i shouldn't ask such things except to my teacher which i don't have nor can i get without somehow moving near a temple or something but i'm quite poor. i didn't imagine that the silly smileys that are right next to the post box would be offensive since they're cute, silly and clearly suggested to be used.

again, sorry if i offended!!!
Last edited by alan... on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:30 pm

this has turned into a poo storm and i feel like i've offended some people with a failed attempt at playfulness and facetiousness that didn't come across well in writing, so i'm just going to say: :heart: :heart: :heart: SORRY ALL AROUND. :heart: :heart: :heart:

and walk away from this thread.
Last edited by alan... on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:38 pm

danieLion wrote:On the Very Idea of the Pali Canon by Steve Collins.

also, alan...,
Do you equate "The Pali Canon" with "the dhamma"?
Yes, this makes some interesting points. The message I take from that, other studies, my personal experience, this thread, and the bickering sometimes (by no means always!) seen on this board about whether or not something or other is "authentic" or "Buddha-vacana" is that it is very easy for me to get distracted from the point of the Dhamma.

I place a lot of value on my interactions with the living tradition of monastic and lay people, and I would be delighted if discussions on this Forum were more like those interactions, i.e. respectful sharing of ideas, and a recognition that the various interpretations one sees of the Dhamma are just that: different interpretations, not choices between right and wrong that can be decided upon by debate. After all, we are talking about the possibility of a path to liberation, which implies the importance of action and experience.

However, this is a discussion Forum run by volunteers, so the climate of the Forum is to a large extent determined by the tendencies of the Members. Moderators/Administrators are certainly very aware that discussions are not always constructive and do take steps to reorient things as far as we are able.

:anjali:
Mike

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:41 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Alan...
alan... wrote:motion denied. sigh. oh well, i tried.

seriously give it some thought though.
Its not a case of 'motion denied'! Personally, I think what we have in place is working well. Though, I am happy to consider how we can do things better.
I will continue to give your suggestion due thought and I will be guided by our membership and the mod/admin team.
We do listen and act. So, please don't feel that your suggestion has fallen on deaf ears.
kind regards

Ben
sorry if i came off as rude ben! not my intention, all playful facetiousness!

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11922
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:56 pm

alan...,

No worries. The written word can be hard to decipher sometimes and it can be easy to misjudge tone, etc.; just wanted to make sure you know that you are welcome here. It's all good, no harm done.

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:02 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:alan...,

No worries. The written word can be hard to decipher sometimes and it can be easy to misjudge tone, etc.; just wanted to make sure you know that you are welcome here. It's all good, no harm done.
:smile:

thanks for being understanding.

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:59 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
I place a lot of value on my interactions with the living tradition of monastic and lay people, and I would be delighted if discussions on this Forum were more like those interactions, i.e. respectful sharing of ideas, and a recognition that the various interpretations one sees of the Dhamma are just that: different interpretations, not choices between right and wrong that can be decided upon by debate. After all, we are talking about the possibility of a path to liberation, which implies the importance of action and experience.
Hear, hear!
_/|\_

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 4408
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:19 pm

danieLion wrote:Alan, what are you talking about? By my recollection we haven't had an official "debunker" here since Contemplans.
That guy was the best.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:31 pm

SDC wrote:
danieLion wrote:Alan, what are you talking about? By my recollection we haven't had an official "debunker" here since Contemplans.
That guy was the best.
That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying. He may have been the best, but the question: the best what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 4408
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:41 pm

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 4408
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
:tongue: What's the problem with a little digital masochism here and there?

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
I did that once.
I was trying to distract myself from something far more painful.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:14 am

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I did that once.
I was trying to distract myself from something far more painful.
It is fun IMO!
my preference is wood as you all may remember?!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests