on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan...
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:59 am

danieLion wrote:alan...
Do you consider Reverend Analayo a debunker?
who? should i know this person?

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:02 am

alan... wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:...you'll see huge amounts of people talking about how the canon...
"Canon" is a western notion western interpreters of Buddhism imposed on Buddhism. In which sutta(s) did the Buddha talk about a "the canon"?
none, irrelevant. this doesn't even make much sense, it's semantics.
Where do you suppose the idea of "the canon" came from? It wasn't the Buddha or Buddhists.

alan...
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:04 am

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:
danieLion wrote:...you'll see huge amounts of people talking about how the canon...
"Canon" is a western notion western interpreters of Buddhism imposed on Buddhism. In which sutta(s) did the Buddha talk about a "the canon"?
Where do you suppose the idea of "the canon" came from? It wasn't the Buddha or Buddhists
sorry, i edited the above to add this for you:

the canon has existed as long as other schools existed since the split of the sangha. regardless of what it was called it is by definition and always has been a "canon". that's not a western notion. for example, one school has their texts, that's their canon, they don't accept such and such texts from another schools agreed upon texts which is the other schools "canon". this is not something imposed on anything, it's just the word we use to define a group of agreed upon texts. only schools that never agree on a set of texts or "canonize" their writings don't have a canon.

the sarvastivadins had a canon, the theravadins have a canon, and so on. a set of texts that are decided upon and no longer added to or subtracted from. for example the taisho tripitaka is the chinese canon, the pali canon is the theravada canon. they are called different things in different languages but they fit the definition of "canon".
Last edited by alan... on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:04 am

alan... wrote:
danieLion wrote:alan...
Do you consider Reverend Analayo a debunker?
who? should i know this person?
Publications by Bhikkhu Anālayo
Do you consider the Chines Agamas part of "the canon"?

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:06 am

alan... wrote:the canon has existed as long as other schools existed since the split of the sangha
Which split, and what, exactly, do you mean by sangha?

alan...
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:13 am

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:the canon has existed as long as other schools existed since the split of the sangha
Which split, and what, exactly, do you mean by sangha?
there was the buddhas original sangha, they had their suttas, then this sangha split off into many other sanghas. each kept some texts and omitted others and added new ones and then decided when to stop this process and keep it consistent, once this decision is made it's called "canonizing" the texts. a finalization of a set of texts is canonizing.

or a different example, if there are star wars books that lucas films agrees should be in the star wars story line, they are "canon". side stories by random authors that lucas films does not like are "not canon". same with the suttas, one school picks suttas 1-95 but leaves out 95-100, they stop there and don't make any more changes, they have "canonized" their texts. another school picks suttas 1-99 and adds another 50 suttas the other school doesn't include in their texts and stops there and they don't make any more changes, now they have their own, different "canon".

not sure if you really don't get this or if you're just trying to trip me up and catch me off guard to make it seem i don't know what i'm talking about or what?

the sangha split, this is a well known fact, every school had it's own texts called "canons" in todays english. they would have been called something else back then but still a similar word to differentiate between each others texts, otherwise there would be no way to differentiate between each schools texts. this is not a western imposition. canonizing existed before the west was a "thing".

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:19 am

alan... wrote:regardless of what it was called it is by definition and always has been a "canon". that's not a western notion.
Okay. What's the Pāli for "canon"?
alan... wrote:for example, one school has their texts, that's their canon, they don't accept such and such texts from another schools agreed upon texts which is the other schools "canon". this is not something imposed on anything, it's just the word we use to define a group of agreed upon texts.
"We" who?
alan... wrote:only schools that never agree on a set of texts or "canonize" their writings don't have a canon.
What do you mean by "schools"?

"Canon" is of Old maybe Middle English derivation. How did the Sarvastivadins, Theravadins, etc... create a "canon" when the word didn't exist yet?

Also, you say there are many canons. If so, how do you know which one is the canon?

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:27 am

alan... wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:the canon has existed as long as other schools existed since the split of the sangha
Which split, and what, exactly, do you mean by sangha?
alan... wrote:there was the buddhas original sangha, they had their suttas, then this sangha split off into many other sanghas. each kept some texts and omitted others and added new ones and then decided when to stop this process and keep it consistent, once this decision is made it's called "canonizing" the texts. a finalization of a set of texts is canonizing....

the sangha split, this is a well known fact, every school had it's own texts called "canons" in todays english. they would have been called something else back then but still a similar word to differentiate between each others texts, otherwise there would be no way to differentiate between each schools texts. this is not a western imposition. canonizing existed before the west was a "thing".
Citation needed. Aristotle's idea that heavy objects fall faster than lighter ones, in direct proportion to weight, was a well known fact until Galileo proved him wrong. I know your opinions. Show me your evidence.

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mikenz66
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:29 am

danieLion wrote:Okay. What's the Pāli for "canon"?
The Tipitaka (Pali ti, "three," + pitaka, "baskets"), or Pali canon, is the collection of primary Pali language texts which form the doctrinal foundation of Theravada Buddhism. The Tipitaka and the paracanonical Pali texts (commentaries, chronicles, etc.) together constitute the complete body of classical Theravada texts.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:03 am

mikenz66 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Okay. What's the Pāli for "canon"?
The Tipitaka (Pali ti, "three," + pitaka, "baskets"), or Pali canon, is the collection of primary Pali language texts which form the doctrinal foundation of Theravada Buddhism. The Tipitaka and the paracanonical Pali texts (commentaries, chronicles, etc.) together constitute the complete body of classical Theravada texts.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
This is good citation only to the extent that it demonstrates western imposition. Tipitaka means three baskets, not Pāli Canon. Thanissaro/ATI is one of the worst offenders.

This citation fails to answer the question. All this citation shows is how westerners misuse the word "canon" to refer to the Tipitaka. It does not tell me what the Pāli for "canon" is or explain how a word that wasn't event invented yet is supposed to be a meaningful symbol for the Pāli texts.
Last edited by danieLion on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Ben » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:06 am

Hi Alan...
alan... wrote:motion denied. sigh. oh well, i tried.

seriously give it some thought though.
Its not a case of 'motion denied'! Personally, I think what we have in place is working well. Though, I am happy to consider how we can do things better.
I will continue to give your suggestion due thought and I will be guided by our membership and the mod/admin team.
We do listen and act. So, please don't feel that your suggestion has fallen on deaf ears.
kind regards

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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danieLion
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by danieLion » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:25 am

On the Very Idea of the Pali Canon by Steve Collins.

also, alan...,
Do you equate "The Pali Canon" with "the dhamma"?

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daverupa
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by daverupa » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:00 pm

It may help to note that, of the three baskets, the Suttapitakas have largely the same content from one school to the next. The Vinayapitakas differ widely, because they are keyed to local issues and lay input as well as cultural expressions and the lot. The Abhidhammapitakas differ in nearly every respect between the schools.

Saying "canon" lumps and blends these distinctions, which can make things confusing.
"buddha never existed. canon is a hodge podge of different authors and presents an inconsistent, confused whole. jhana is not possible except to a select few. no one has ever reached nibbana."
...and I've not seen this on the forum of late... not even the hodge-podge statement, or the Buddha's historicity; while it sometimes gets thrown in as a parenthetical, it's unsupported hyperskepticism.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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appicchato
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by appicchato » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:15 pm

One person's debunk is another's bunk, which is, if asked, what I'd call this idea...anyone getting cold feet at the first sign of beliefs that don't coincide with what they think, or feel, should be the truth isn't ready for the path...when one IS ready, one will take the time to research, evaluate, contemplate, meditate, and a few other ates to form an informed basis of their own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs concerning the way forward...or not at all...

Life's all about winnowing the chaff from the grain...an earnest practitioner, or potential practitioner, will make the effort to discern which is which...

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tiltbillings
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:20 pm

This is enough to make me do a bunk.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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