vipassana craziness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

The answer is with the frames of reference.

Question answered. :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

The answer is with the frames of reference.

Question answered. :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
And my point is made. Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
just watch what happens in daily life
OK... but presented that generically, I doubt you would find Sujin, RobertK etc. disagreeing with it either. But then, they won't call "watch what happens in daily life" a "technique", and neither would I.
If I understand them correctly, Robert (and Sujin, etc) would say that if you think you can induce mindfulness by paying attention to phenomena then you have wrong view.

What you describe sounds like quite a common approach on a long retreat. Just pay attention to whatever arises.
retrofuturist wrote: It seems much of this comes back to where the line is drawn with regards to what constitutes a "technique". As you said to Mr Man above, there's different levels of structure associated with different approaches.
Yes, but that structure, lack of structure, or the particular things you are paying attention to, have no particular Dhammic significance, as far as my understanding goes. Such details are not in the suttas, so it seems that they are optional.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:What you describe sounds like quite a common approach on a long retreat. Just pay attention to whatever arises.
Do they teach something like this...? "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." (MN 117)
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, but that structure, lack of structure, or the particular things you are paying attention to, have no particular Dhammic significance, as far as my understanding goes. Such details are not in the suttas, so it seems that they are optional.
Agreed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What you describe sounds like quite a common approach on a long retreat. Just pay attention to whatever arises.
Do they teach something like this...? "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." (MN 117))
Well, yes, but of course that's what everyone teaches, isn't it? It's a major topic of the path, so it requires quite a bit of elaboration...

:anjali:
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Well, yes, but of course that's what everyone teaches, isn't it?
Well I don't know - I don't recall anyone else saying it, but then, I've not explored what everyone teaches... hence the question.

Thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Well, yes, but of course that's what everyone teaches, isn't it?
Well I don't know - I don't recall anyone else saying it, but then, I've not explored what everyone teaches... hence the question.
I've no idea which teachers you have talked to, read, or listened to who don't spend time discussing the development of right view, so I'm rather puzzled what you might be referring to.

:anjali:
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
I've no idea which teachers you have talked to, read, or listened to who don't spend time discussing the development of right view, so I'm rather puzzled what you might be referring to.
I'm not talking so much about whether they promote right view or not... I was asking whether they teach this particular dynamic (or technique if you prefer)...
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." (MN 117)
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." (MN 117)
That is characteristic of all the vipassana teachers I have worked with.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." (MN 117)
That is characteristic of all the vipassana teachers I have worked with.
To me it seems obvious that anyone worth listening teaches that. So I can't understand why the question would arise in the first place. Of course, I can't guarantee that every teacher would say those exact words, but in my experience it's a common theme.

:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Mike
Well I was puzzled because I couldn't find any criticisms of Goenka in the thread. I certainly have questions - It seems that discussion is taboo though. That doesn't seem to be the case with other teachers/schools or not to the same degree anyway.
Sorry, I thought this was a "criticism":
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 91#p220129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: the Goenka practice is certainly inline with what the Buddha taught.
It is presented within the context of what the Buddha taught but the "technique" and format? The Goenka practice is not main stream Theravada.
I think it's quite valid to ask such questions, but you'd have to explain what is different between what Goenka is teaching and what you would advise otherwise for me to take them seriously.

As I said to Retro, there are a range of ways to structure practice (some not particularly structured), all of which, as far as I can understand, are equally compatible with the Suttas. If you think that certain teachers are teaching approaches incompatible with the suttas you'd have to be specific about the details.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike, I don't think it is my position to advocate a specific technique or path of practice and to some extent I don't think a specific technique is needed. We can adjust our practice to suit the situation and to what we are trying to achieve (I don't mean pick and choose or do what we like). I think the power of our practice should not be in a specific technique but more in a mindset or foundation, which we build.

With the Goenka practice we can't take just the "sweeping technique" and say this is Vipassana meditation as handed down from the Buddha we have to take the whole package to understand what is happening. I don't think there is somthing fundamentally wrong with the technique, it might be a good and useful we just need to keep it in perspective and see it for what it is, which is an exercise in concentration/awareness. We also need to look at the package that it is presented in - you must comit to this paractice only.

Ajahn Sumedho talks about the sound of silence. He recommends it as a tool to allow our minds to calm down as a resting point. Some people say that this is the primordial sound, some say is the sound of the blood moving within the body or tinnitus but it really doesn't matter. Ajahn Sumedho is not adding to much to the "technique", accept for the poetic name, He is not saying or implying that the technique is acting as an agent. He is just using it in a skillful way.
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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote: He is not saying or implying that the technique is acting as an agent. He is just using it in a skillful way.
Sounds like Goenka.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote: He is not saying or implying that the technique is acting as an agent. He is just using it in a skillful way.
Sounds like Goenka.
From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote: He is not saying or implying that the technique is acting as an agent. He is just using it in a skillful way.
Sounds like Goenka.
From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

Tilt another difference with the way that Goenka teaches is to implement it you need to comfit to the whole Goenka package.
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