The obvious question about Kamma

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alan
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The obvious question about Kamma

Post by alan »

...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
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retrofuturist
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,

.... without a single reference to kamma.

:candle:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
befriend
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by befriend »

im not sure if everything is karma or not, but weve all had past lives and have done evil things in these past lives. no one is innocent, in the context of buddhist cosmology.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
alan
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by alan »

But how to explain that to non-Buddhists friends, when they ask you "why" this happened?
alan
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by alan »

I don't know either.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Kusala
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by Kusala »

alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
Well, I'd tell him or her that people die everyday.
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He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

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mikenz66
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by mikenz66 »

It seems to me that the problem is that other religions claim to make life comprehensible, that there is some purpose to it (usually something to do with God). Hence such questions. The Buddha wasn't interested in explaining a purpose, or the specific details of life, only the general problem and what to do about it.

:anjali:
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Ben
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by Ben »

Hi Alan

Another interesting question to ponder is, 'how can an all-loving and all-powerful god let this happen"?
I understand that the doctrine of kamma can seem to provide cold comfort at times like this, especially as we grasp for some form of explanation or certainty. Having said that, not everything that happens is the result of kamma. In samsara, good stuff happens as does the awful nasty and evil s--t.

Rather than focus on attempting to answer a question that cannot be answered, it may be better to acknowledge that in this moment suffering exists, that this life is fickle and our only real refuge lies is in walking the path. And in walking the path, we are that little bit more able to act for the benefit of ourselves and others. I hope the time is right for political reform on gun control in the US. It just requires the kamma (intention) of enough people to make it happen.
kind regards,

Ben
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DAWN
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by DAWN »

befriend wrote:im not sure if everything is karma or not.
Kamma is mouvement.
Kamma fruit = Mouvement fruit.

Is kamma who rebirth not a identity.

Yes all is kamma, all is mouvement.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by Spiny Norman »

alan wrote:But how to explain that to non-Buddhists friends, when they ask you "why" this happened?
Mention chaos theory. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Dan74
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by Dan74 »

mikenz66 wrote:It seems to me that the problem is that other religions claim to make life comprehensible, that there is some purpose to it (usually something to do with God). Hence such questions. The Buddha wasn't interested in explaining a purpose, or the specific details of life, only the general problem and what to do about it.

:anjali:
Mike
:goodpost:

Many other good replies too.

To me, kamma is causal connection in the ever-changing flux of happenings. Of course tragic events are connected to many many other events. They are not isolated. What we all do have far-reaching impact.
_/|\_
beeblebrox
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by beeblebrox »

alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
It depends on how the life was lost... I think there are many different possible ways to answer this, or maybe even a few better ways to re-frame the question.

If the person was murdered by someone, for example, I would also try to think about why that someone killed... just to widen the perspective a bit.

If the person died of cancer, I would think about why there's cancer, and why would that cause the death. Or even think about why we're fixated on the cancer.

I think that to fixate on just one point (as if there's such a thing, in anicca), like a specific person, or a specific thing, would be to miss a lot of things.

Of course... I wouldn't say that in this specific way to someone who wasn't even familiar with it... we just need to learn how to discuss it without relying on the Dhamma.

I practice quite a bit with people who practice Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings... we have a "dharma sharing," and one of the guidelines for it is that we shouldn't speak theoretically about something... we're just supposed to share from our experiences, and also we're just supposed to listen to other person's share without comments. I think that this helps quite a lot with learning how to apply the dharma in a real way.

If the person brought up the kamma, you can always just listen to what he/she thinks about it, be a support, and then if we can, help him/her out with adjusting his/her own views of it towards something which is more beneficial.

We don't need to remain attached with our own ideas, which I think could be a cause for that kind of choking.

:anjali:
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Alobha
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by Alobha »

alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
It depends on the emotional state of the person asking and his/her background.
One would most likely not do well by arguing with khamma. It would most likely be misleading them into seeing khamma as a moralistic judgment system (which it isn't.).
Really depends on the person though.
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gavesako
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by gavesako »

If you mention "kamma", then in this context the most obvious thing to say is: It was an act of cruelty (vihimsa) acting on the intention to harm others. To focus on the perpetrator of the act is more fruitful, and we can trace the impulse that led to his violent act to some thoughts and views which he held about the world and himself in it. No doubt, the kamma which he did is very heavy, and he has to be held responsible for it. Not that an All-Powerful God will judge him for it, it is more like this (a picture I saw, reproducing it below):
I saw that.
- Karma
Regarding those who were killed by this person's violent action, there might not be a simple answer as to "why" it happened to them. Consider this Sutta in which the Buddha describes why painful feelings (such as being shot at) arise for living beings:

"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven[2] care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any brahmans & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those brahmans & contemplatives are wrong."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven. Thanissaro tries to interpret it in a wider sense which is interesting, and it related to his interpretations of the principle of kamma and vipaka using chaos theory.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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cbonanno
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma

Post by cbonanno »

alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
No life is innocent, or guilty.
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