vipassana craziness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Post Reply
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:
It doesn't require any specific "doing"... you just perceive according to Right View, instead of perceiving according to Wrong View.
And how does one "just perceive according to Right View?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:30 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And how does one "just perceive according to Right View?"
I could point to any number of suttas (e.g. Bahiya Sutta, Satipatthana Sutta, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta and I will find more if you actually want to see them) but I suspect that no matter how many I present, you'll still be asking "how", because the "how" you have come to expect goes beyond what and how the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka taught.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And how does one "just perceive according to Right View?"
I could point to any number of suttas (e.g. Bahiya Sutta, Satipatthana Sutta, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta and I will find more if you actually want to see them) but I suspect that no matter how many I present, you'll still be asking "how", because the "how" you have come to expect goes beyond what and how the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka taught.
Interesting that you are telling me how I think, without actually asking me, but also interstingly you are not really answering the question I have put to you.

Basically, what you seem to be saying here is that these texts can only be understood in one way which, if understood that way, would be the unquestionable way of understanding the Buddhas teachings. You seem to think that I do not correctly undestand the Buddha's teachings, but you are interstingly unwilling expound on how one should correctly understand these texts. So, tell me, show me, what I am missing here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:09 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Basically, what you seem to be saying here is that these texts can only be understood in one way which, if understood that way, would be the unquestionable way of understanding the Buddhas teachings.
No, but there is one underlying meaning and intention behind what the Buddha taught - the truth of the Dhamma that the Buddha wanted to put into words. It would be folly or political correctness to think that all interpretations of the Buddha's teaching that have arisen over time are equally good representations of that Dhamma.
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to think that I do not correctly undestand the Buddha's teachings, but you are interstingly unwilling expound on how one should correctly understand these texts. So, tell me, show me, what I am missing here.
I already have. You found that "a great deal [was] left unsaid", as if there must necessarily be something more to it. Some extra level of prescriptivity that needs to be expounded and elaborated - perhaps, simply, there's not?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:22 am

retrofuturist wrote: It would be folly or political correctness to think that all interpretations of the Buddha's teaching that have arisen over time are equally good representations of that Dhamma.
That is not a claim I have made, even remotely.
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to think that I do not correctly understand the Buddha's teachings, but you are interestingly unwilling expound on how one should correctly understand these texts. So, tell me, show me, what I am missing here.
I already have. You found that "a great deal [was] left unsaid", as if there must necessarily be something more to it. Maybe there's not?
Well, you already have, but I must have missed it, being rather thick and all. Or you are purposefully being cryptic. I have asked you to elucidate your point of view, but it is still unclear what you mean by: It doesn't require any specific "doing"... you just perceive according to Right View, instead of perceiving according to Wrong View.


we need only perceive them as they truly are (i.e. how the Buddha explained them to be), not perceiving them otherwise... and in doing so, avoid appropriating anything in that loka, as per the instruction in the oft-repeated Satipatthana Sutta refrain. And one does this how?

When do you know when one has Right View? And just how does one "you just perceive according to Right View?" Simple questions for trying to understand your point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:38 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:That is not a claim I have made, even remotely.
I didn't say it was. It was the caveat condition for my "no" response.
tiltbillings wrote:Well, you already have, but I must have missed it, being rather thick and all. Or you are purposefully being cryptic. I have asked you to elucidate your point of view, but it is still unclear what you mean by:

It doesn't require any specific "doing"... you just perceive according to Right View, instead of perceiving according to Wrong View.
...
we need only perceive them as they truly are (i.e. how the Buddha explained them to be), not perceiving them otherwise... and in doing so, avoid appropriating anything in that loka, as per the instruction in the oft-repeated Satipatthana Sutta refrain.

And one does this how?
It's a matter of "not doing" (i.e. not accumulating, not seeing them as self, not seeing them as I, not giving rise to sankharas based upon avijja), rather than a matter of "doing". The "doing" in the "not doing" cannot be explained because it is not done.
tiltbillings wrote:When do you know when one has Right View? And just how does one "you just perceive according to Right View?" Simple questions for trying to understand your point of view.
The answers, straight from the teacher...
DN 22 wrote:"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."
AN 3.65 wrote:"When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."
MN 117 wrote:"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
MN 2 wrote:"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices."
SN 55.3 wrote:You should further develop six qualities conducive to clear knowing. Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications, percipient of stress in what is inconstant, percipient of not-self in what is stressful, percipient of abandoning, percipient of dispassion, percipient of cessation. That's how you should train yourself."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:It's a matter of "not doing" (i.e. not accumulating, not seeing them as self, not seeing them as I), rather than a matter of "doing". The "doing" in the "not doing" cannot be explained because it is not done.
Well, mindfully watching the rise and fall of the six things is very much not doing. Looks like you are doing vipassana after all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:57 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Well, mindfully watching the rise and fall of the six things is very much not doing. Looks like you are doing vipassana after all.
No one said it was otherwise.
MN 48 wrote:'When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, I personally obtain serenity, I personally obtain Unbinding.'
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Well, mindfully watching the rise and fall of the six things is very much not doing. Looks like you are doing vipassana after all.
No one said it was otherwise.
Okay, but then given that I really do not understand you earlier comments and objections about the vipassana practice discussed above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:08 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, but then given that I really do not understand you earlier comments and objections about the vipassana practice discussed above.
Which objections?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, but then given that I really do not understand you earlier comments and objections about the vipassana practice discussed above.
Which objections?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Pick one.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:13 am

Greetings Tilt,

I don't see one, which is why I'm asking.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I don't see one . . . .
Then we can let it go at that, but it good to see that since you are doing essentially vipassana practice that you have no objection to the Burmese practices used to teach vipassana -- not doing -- to the masses by using carefully crafted techniques to bring to life the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:22 am

Greetings Tilt,

I only object when the Buddha's teachings as portrayed as not being sufficiently comprehensive in-and-of themselves for stream-entry and subsequent liberation... the notion that they somehow need to be elaborated on, built upon, or extended upon... or that they only show the results of the practice, and not what the practice actually is - as if the Buddha taught with a closed fist and we therefore need separate "techniques" (transmitted outside the scriptures) to achieve those results.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I only object when the Buddha's teachings as portrayed as not being sufficiently comprehensive in-and-of themselves for stream-entry and subsequent liberation... the notion that they somehow need to be elaborated on, built upon, or extended upon... or that they only show the results of the practice, and not what the practice actually is - as if the Buddha taught with a closed fist and we therefore need separate "techniques" (transmitted outside the scriptures) to achieve those results.
Thank gawd the Burmese vipassana founders did not do any of that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: one_awakening and 14 guests