Why the criticisms?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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mikenz66
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Billy,

Many suttas.

Most obviously the Satipatthana Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But also suttas on dependent origination:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Papanca
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hindrances
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Faculties
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14239" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and so on...

:anjali:
Mike
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Billymac29 wrote:Quick question:
Why are there so many criticisms about the Mahasi technique out there?
Because criticism is much easier than practice:

Easily Seen Are Others’ Faults

Here are some noteworthy responses by Sayādaw U Pandita in reply to various points raised by critics of the Mahāsi method.
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purple planet
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by purple planet »

Without straying to much - i think that this might help understand :

Can we say that the goal can be to get rid of the defilments (and that will automaticlly lead to nirvana) ? and if so it might be a good way to judge a technique is by how affective it is removing defilments

i practice in the mahasi style and i think one nice think about it is for a beginner it is more acceptable because you arnt told to focus on something just to note things as they are : so its easier to think of it as : ohh im just trying to see reality as is not focusing on some object like breathing its noticing things as is - it raises less doubts this way for a beginner

i understand now the general idea of all methods but as a beginner its raises less question as to how looking at the breath will help me "see" reality (again - i understand how but for a doubtful beginner just at the start its helpful)
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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Billy,

Many suttas.

Most obviously the Satipatthana Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But also suttas on dependent origination:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Papanca
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hindrances
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Faculties
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14239" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and so on...

:anjali:
Mike
thanks mike I'll look them over

:)
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:Quick question:
Why are there so many criticisms about the Mahasi technique out there?
Because criticism is much easier than practice:

Easily Seen Are Others’ Faults

Here are some noteworthy responses by Sayādaw U Pandita in reply to various points raised by critics of the Mahāsi method.
Thank you Bhikkhu Pesala.. :bow:
Would you happen to have any more writings of the subject??
:anjali:

may all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

purple planet wrote:Without straying to much - i think that this might help understand :

Can we say that the goal can be to get rid of the defilments (and that will automaticlly lead to nirvana) ? and if so it might be a good way to judge a technique is by how affective it is removing defilments

i practice in the mahasi style and i think one nice think about it is for a beginner it is more acceptable because you arnt told to focus on something just to note things as they are : so its easier to think of it as : ohh im just trying to see reality as is not focusing on some object like breathing its noticing things as is - it raises less doubts this way for a beginner

i understand now the general idea of all methods but as a beginner its raises less question as to how looking at the breath will help me "see" reality (again - i understand how but for a doubtful beginner just at the start its helpful)

thanks purple :)

with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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mikenz66
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Billy,
Billymac29 wrote: Would you happen to have any more writings of the subject??
Bhikkhu Pesala's site http://www.aimwell.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a number of translations by Mahasi Sayadaw and others.

In terms of getting a rather opposite view of arguments, there is a book out there (and it may be on a website, I only have a paper copy) that collects together an argument that happened over a period of years in, I believe, a Sri Lankan journal. "Opposite" because, unlike comments about such-and-such "not being in the suttas" that one sometimes sees on this site, the objections were that Mahasi Sayadaw had erred by not paying enough attention to the ancient commentaries...

If you read the link that Bhikkhu Pesala gave carefully, you'll see hints of U Pandita's rather playful attitude to criticisms and texts there.

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Ques ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānassati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.
:anjali:
Mike
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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Billy,


In terms of getting a rather opposite view of arguments, there is a book out there (and it may be on a website, I only have a paper copy) that collects together an argument that happened over a period of years in, I believe, a Sri Lankan journal. "Opposite" because, unlike comments about such-and-such "not being in the suttas" that one sometimes sees on this site, the objections were that Mahasi Sayadaw had erred by not paying enough attention to the ancient commentaries...

:anjali:
Mike
I would love to be able to read that book. I believe that would be quite interesting...

thanks Mike
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

Thank you again bhante
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
Gena1480
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by Gena1480 »

Hello to all
Can i ask you friends
what frame is being used when noting?
in what frame is mindfulness establish?
is it body?
is it feelings?
is it mind?
is it mental qualities?
if you select one
please tell me how is it that its being establish?
thank you.
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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

Gena1480 wrote:Hello to all
Can i ask you friends
what frame is being used when noting?
in what frame is mindfulness establish?
is it body?
is it feelings?
is it mind?
is it mental qualities?
if you select one
please tell me how is it that its being establish?
thank you.
The primary object is usually the body and when another impedes strong enough you move to that secondary object until it passes and then return to your primary object of attention

With metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Kamran
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by Kamran »

The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kamran wrote:The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.
:tongue:

Yes, it's not going to be practical, or desirable, to go through life noting every movement of the fingers...

In a controlled situation, such as a retreat, it can be a very helpful exercise to pay continuous attention to every movement, and every feeling and thought that arises, to see just what your body/mind is up to...

In "real life" this is, of course, not going to be an option. However, with this training it is easier to follow advice such as:
"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
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badscooter
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by badscooter »

mikenz66 wrote:
Kamran wrote:The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.
:tongue:

Yes, it's not going to be practical, or desirable, to go through life noting every movement of the fingers...

In a controlled situation, such as a retreat, it can be a very helpful exercise to pay continuous attention to every movement, and every feeling and thought that arises, to see just what your body/mind is up to...

In "real life" this is, of course, not going to be an option. However, with this training it is easier to follow advice such as:
"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
I agree... Also remember noting itself is not mindfulness, but a tool to help aid in mindfulness

:anjali:

way all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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purple planet
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Post by purple planet »

agree... Also remember noting itself is not mindfulness, but a tool to help aid in mindfulness
billymac you are right (i think) - i just want to add i read somewhere a monk said that if you label you have mindfulness at that moment - that once you label something you cannot be unmindful at that time
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