posture as foundation of mindfulness

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

We seem to have wandered off into a rather technical discussion. I think that PolarBuddha's description here is an excellent answer to the question. As indicated here, such examination will teach you a lot about what your mind/body is actually doing...
polarbuddha101 wrote:
befriend wrote:kind of confused on how to be aware of my posture. is the awareness supposed to be a constant stready stream, do i feel with my minds eye the feelings inside my body, or do i just understand that i am standing. metta, befriend
The way I read the sutta is that instead of going off and thinking about breakfast when you wake up, immediately point your mind to the fact that you are lying down. Just notice that you're lying down and be aware of sitting up, getting out of bed and try not to think any thoughts about the past or the future, just be totally aware and alert of what your body is doing in the present moment and if you get distracted remind yourself to return to just being alert of what is going on right now. Next time you're on the john, really pay attention to the sheer act of defecating or urinating, just notice that it is going on without thinking about what's in the newspaper or whether there's any coffee left in the house. If you manage to do this and avoid getting all caught up in thought worlds then you'll start to experience reality with less and less mental fabrications running through and distorting it by concocting senses of self and constancy or by just plain distracting you from what is really going on all around you in your field of experience. So, the short answer is do both. Just plain old understand that you are standing and try to remain perpetually aware of all the sensations you're experiencing at the same time. This practice will contribute a great deal to the clarity and acuity of your mind.

:namaste:
Very simple, but not necessarily easy. It takes quite a bit of practice...

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:It could mean that the brahmaviharas and satipatthana are a foundation of practice before, during, and after jhana. They're a framework for all occasions, in other words, not just for during dedicated sitting/walking meditation practice.
Good point. The Commentaries (and U Pandita's "Vipassana Jhana" terminology) suggests that the development of the jhana factors to a high level (at least "access concentration") is necessary for insight to arise.

It seems to me that there are two aspects of satipatthana. One is the development of enough mindfulness to allow the development concentration (as in the usual gradual training suttas, where there is some mindfulness development before abandoning hte hindrences and entering jhanas [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html]). The other is the development of insight, which requires a good degree of concentration.

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:It could mean that the brahmaviharas and satipatthana are a foundation of practice before, during, and after jhana. They're a framework for all occasions, in other words, not just for during dedicated sitting/walking meditation practice.
Good point.... It seems to me that there are two aspects of satipatthana. One is the development of enough mindfulness to allow the development concentration (as in the usual gradual training suttas, where there is some mindfulness development before abandoning hte hindrences and entering jhanas ... The other is the development of insight, which requires a good degree of concentration.
I think you could also add a third and distinct aspect to that list - to quote Dave, "a framework for all occasions".

I do think there's merit in acknowledging the present moment benefits of a life of mindfulness in and of itself, without necessarily framing it as a means to an end. Frankly, once insight into the nature of dukkha is obtained, living mindfully in accordance with that knowledge is a pleasurable and happy mode of existence, in and of itself, for its own sake.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: I do think there's merit in acknowledging the present moment benefits of a life of mindfulness in and of itself, without necessarily framing it as a means to an end.
That's certainly a good point. I was just following on from Dave's comments, and discussing the relationship between satipatthana and jhana in the various suttas, and how it was not necessarily contradictory to have the different orderings.

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:
'Or his mindfulness that "there is a body" is established in him to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness.' -- Ven Nyanaponika

"... mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,'" is not supported by the Pali.
It's one of those bugbears that I have with translations that consistently interpret the presence of the "iti" clitics as necessitating thought. May be appropriate in those suttas that use etadahosi to preface the thought, but you are right that verbalisation is not a given when the iti pops up.
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posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by befriend »

i dont see how a hand or a body part cant be an object of noting but sitting, standing, and lying down are objects of meditation for the four foundations of mindfulness.
happy new year
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by Cittasanto »

befriend wrote:i dont see how a hand or a body part cant be an object of noting but sitting, standing, and lying down are objects of meditation for the four foundations of mindfulness.
happy new year
See the Sampajana section of the satipatthana sutta.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi befriend,

Don't you think that:
... just as his body is disposed so he knows it.
would include anything that any part would be doing? That's certainly the way I see it usually interpreted.

:anjali:
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foundation of mindfulness

Post by befriend »

how can posture be a foundation of mindfulness? thanks Befriend
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
daverupa
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Re: foundation of mindfulness

Post by daverupa »

Well, awareness of posture is part of sampajanna, and the body is a category of satipatthana.

Satisampajanna, then, would be an encompassing awareness of the state of what can be known with respect to the satipatthana categories, which includes posture. In cases where old habits prevailed and satisampajanna was absent, shifting postures might be enough to remind you of the practice.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: foundation of mindfulness

Post by SarathW »

Hi Befriend
I think it is the awareness of the first of the five aggregate. (Rupa or matter).
Then you move on to the awareness of Vedana, Sanna, Sankara and Citta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: foundation of mindfulness

Post by Cittasanto »

befriend wrote:how can posture be a foundation of mindfulness? thanks Befriend
The posture of the body can be a foundation of mindfulness because the body is a place mindfulness should be established.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

MODERATOR NOTE: Three nearly-identical topics created by the same user have been merged. If members can avoid creating nearly identical topics on a regular basis, it will save other members having to repeat themselves over and over again.

:thanks:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by befriend »

sorry about that, ill try not to let that happen again. metta, befriend
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: posture as foundation of mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Thanks Befriend.

Ok...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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