"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

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Tom
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"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

  • 20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?
santa100
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by santa100 »

An alternative translation from F.L.Woodward's "The Book of Gradual Sayings":
Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The wrong expression of the letter of the text and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right. These two things conduce to the estalishment... of true Dhamma
So it may apply to any case of wrong rendering or wrong interpretation of the Buddha's teaching..
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retrofuturist
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Woodward translation wrote:"For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
A nice reminder of the primacy of Right View in the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Tom
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

Is this referring to the "letter" used in communicating the Buddha's discourses or the "letter" used in any communication of Dhamma?
alan...
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by alan... »

ccharles wrote:
  • 20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?
my guess is it's about oral transmission. passing on each sutta word for word EXACTLY as they are supposed to be.

today we have to worry less as they are already recorded. there are some small differences between editions of the pali canon but it's mostly the same. so it's already over with. anything confused is stuck that way. although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight! what a guy! seriously amazing man. he made some really interesting finds when translating the anguttara nikaya according to it's introduction.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Cittasanto »

ccharles wrote:
  • 20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?
I would say it is some of each.
or more specifically, this could refer to those instances of a disciple saying something was taught by the Buddha when it wasn't. but to assume it is not inclusive of any utterance that is true Dhamma-vinaya would be mistaken.

There are other verses in AN2 which point out similar things like who misrepresents the Dhamma.... essentially looking at the same problem from a different angle.
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danieLion
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

ccharles wrote:AN2.2:20:21
bad link
Tom
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.
Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?
danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote:AN2.2:20:21
bad link
In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
alan...
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by alan... »

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.
okay well either way he's contributing a lot of hard work and his translations are available everywhere, where are analayo's complete translation nikayas toe be found? also when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"? if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.
danieLion
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

ccharles wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ccharles wrote:In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
so there's not a good link?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

alan... wrote:when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?
yes
alan... wrote:if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.
You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.
rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"
Tom
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But in the way you used the term, are you saying it's as if Bhikkhu Bodhi is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Analayo or Bhikkhu Analayo is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Bodhi?
danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote: In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
so there's not a good link?
I would post Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation if I knew I wasn't violating any possible copyright issues. Does anyone here know if this would be violating any copyright issues?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi ccharles,

I think that posting extracts, or small suttas such as that, would fall under fair use in most jurisdictions.

:anjali:
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Tom
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 2.20:
“Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? [59] Badly set down words and phrases and badly interpreted meaning.238 When the words and phrases are badly set down, the meaning is badly interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. “Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? Well-set down words and phrases and well-interpreted meaning.239 When the words and phrases are well set down, the meaning is well interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma.”
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