posture as foundation of mindfulness

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
porpoise wrote:Yes, and I'm struggling with the idea of establishing mindfulness with a thought.
daverupa wrote:One does it with vitakka-vicara at first, certainly.
Yes. The vitakka-vicara may be quite active at first...

"And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it."

... but when the mental activity itself becomes a hindrance to bhavana as the mind is naturally calmed (or if it is already calm), the "as his body is disposed so he understands it" perception can be streamlined/simplified...

"Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,'"

We see from the sutta that in relation to the postures, the dynamic to be obtained/experienced is that of "knowledge and remembrance, and... liv[ing] independent and appropriat[ing] naught in the world."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

Does the above argument still work if we use the Bodhi/Thanissaro translations?
Or else mindfulness that ‘there is a body’ is simply established in him to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness.
"... mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,'" seems to me to be a rather odd expression. Perhaps some of our Pali scholars could comment (I gave the Pali above, I think).

:anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

I would think so, as they're all vitakka-vicara.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I'd be interested in some technical comments on the Pali:
Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti
The way I understand the translations:
Or else mindfulness that ‘there is a body’ is simply established in him to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness.
is that it is not about conceptual thought, but mindfulness based on a general awareness of the body, as opposed to the more specific:
Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.'
and so on...

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:I'd be interested in some technical comments on the Pali:
Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti
atthi there is
kāyo ti body ti (iti) ends quoatation
or, used to link two sentences
pan'assa (pana + assa) further his
sati mindfulness
paccupat.t.hita established, present
hoti is
(and to continue with this sentence)
yāvad eva at least, as far as
ñān.a-mattāya
ñān.a understanding mattāya dat singular 'for the purpose of'
pat.ssati-mattāya
pat.ssati mindfulness, recollection

'Or his mindfulness that "there is a body" is established in him to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness.' -- Ven Nyanaponika

"... mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,'" is not supported by the Pali.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote:I'd be interested in some technical comments on the Pali:
Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti
From Venerable Anandajoti's translation
Some texts (BJT) and translations (Way, VRI) divide these alternatives into 3 blocks (1: ajjhattaü, bahiddhà, ajjhattabahiddhà; 2: samudaya-, vaya-, samudayavaya-; 3: ßatthi kàyoû), but this is not justified by the grammar, which connects all the alternatives with và...và...
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by Assaji »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I'd be interested in some technical comments on the Pali:
Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti
There's a parallel with Dvedhavitakka sutta which helps to understand this expression.

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'"

This indeed refers to a rather advanced stage of practice, when there's no immediate need to apply the right effort.

As for the kind of effort that may be required, - this is described in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta:

"What four? Here, Ananda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly.

That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign [nimitta]. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born.

When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness."

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Tilt, Cittasanto, Dmytro for the

Ānandajoti Bhikkhu's translation is here:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“atthi kāyo” ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti
or else mindfulness that “there is a body” is established in him
:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Here is the whole section from
Ānandajoti Bhikkhu's translation:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,
Thus he dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body in regard to himself,
  • The context seems to indicate that contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body means contemplating the transient, ownerless nature of the body, as is signified by the references to origination and dissolution (samudaya & vaya [= anicca]) on the one hand; and the impersonal knowledge “there is a body” (atthi kāyo [=anattā]) on the other. Dukkha, the other of the three characteristics of existence (tilakkhaṇa) is implied in anicca. And similarly in regard to the other contemplations.
bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,
or he dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body in regard to others,
  • That we are really talking about others’ bodies, and not the internal and external parts of our own body, is confirmed by the Abhidhamma Satipaṭṭhānavibhaṅga (translated elsewhere on this website), where the grammar excludes any other interpretation.
ajjhattabahiddhā [*] vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,[/i]
or he dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body in regard to himself and in regard to
others,
  • * See DP, ajjhattaṁ (and °bahiddhā) for these meanings. In Janavasabhasutta (DN 18,26) it says: Idha ... bhikkhu ajjhattaṁ kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ; ajjhattaṁ kāye kāyānupassī viharanto tattha sammā samādhiyati, sammā vippasīdati, so tattha sammā samāhito sammā vippasanno bahiddhā parakāye ñāṇadassanaṁ abhinibbatteti; here ... a monk dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body, ardent, with full awareness, mindfully aware, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world; while he dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body there he becomes perfectly concentrated, perfectly clear, and, being perfectly concentrated, perfectly clear, he generates knowledge and insight regarding the external bodies of others. Similarly in regard to the contemplation of vedanā, citta, and dhamma.
samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati,
or he dwells contemplating the nature of origination in the body,
  • Kāye (on the previous line) & kāyasmiṁ are alternative forms of the locative singular of kāya, the former ending being the normal one, and the latter borrowing from the pronominal declension; the same alternation occurs later with citte and cittasmiṁ.
vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati,
or he dwells contemplating the nature of dissolution in the body,

samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati,
or he dwells contemplating the nature of origination and dissolution in the body,

“atthi kāyo” ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti
or else mindfulness that “there is a body” is established in him
  • Some texts (BJT) and translations (Way, VRI) divide these alternatives into 3 blocks (1: ajjhattaṁ, bahiddhā, ajjhattabahiddhā; 2: samudaya-, vaya-, samudayavaya-; 3: “atthi kāyo”), but this is not justified by the grammar, which connects all the alternatives with vā...vā...
yāvad-eva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya,
just as far as (is necessary for) a full measure of knowledge and a full measure of mindfulness,
  • The translation follows the commentary, which says: Yāvad-evā ti payojanaparicchedavavatthāpanam-etaṁ. Idaṁ vuttaṁ hoti: yā sā sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti sā na aññad-atthāya. Atha kho yāvad-eva ñāṇamattāya aparāparaṁ uttaruttari ñāṇapamāṇatthāya ceva satipamāṇatthāya ca, satisampajaññānaṁ vuḍḍhatthāyā ti attho; just as far as, this designates, and is limited to, purpose. This is what is said: whatever mindfulness is established is not for another reason. Then the meaning of as far as (is necessary for) a measure of knowledge is so as to increase more and more, further and further, knowledge and mindfulness, for the increase of mindfulness and full awareness. For the same word in Sanskrit having this meaning see SED under mātra.

    This seems to me to make much better sense than the usual translation of for just knowledge and remembrance (Way); or for mere understanding and mere awareness (VRI). See also MN 22, near the end, where saddhamatta is translated by Ñāṇamoḷi and Bodhi (MLDB) as sufficient faith, and pemamatta as sufficient love.
anissito ca viharati, [*] na ca kiñci loke upādiyati. [**][/i]
and he dwells independent, and without being attached to anything in the world.
  • * Comm: taṇhānissayadiṭṭhinissayānaṁ vasena anissito va viharati; he lives independent because he is not dependent on wrong views or craving.
    ** Comm: ayaṁ me attā vā attaniyaṁ vā ti na gaṇhāti; he doesn’t grasp (anything) thinking: this is my self or this belongs to my self.
Evam-pi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.
In this way, monks, a monk dwells contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body.

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:"And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it."
I see what you mean. But is this more like what we'd call labelling, once mindfulness has initially been established? I know some people use physical sensations like the breath to initially establish mindfulness, so presumably it doesn't have to be thought-based.
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by daverupa »

AN 8.63 wrote:When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,

Certainly, that is an interesting Sutta. In that case there seems to be a description of the development of Jhana, based on the Brahmaviharas and mindfulness of the body. We discussed this over here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[And, as also discussed there, the Satipatthana commentary discusses the development of Jhana as one of the options for fulfilling the "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" instruction.]

I'm not sure how you want us to use that in the context of the current discussion, apart from that there are many different possible sequences of development.

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dave,

Certainly, that is an interesting Sutta. In that case there is a description of the development of Jhana based on the Brahmaviharas follwed by satipatthana, as we discussed over here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[And, as also discussed there, the Satipatthana commentary discusses the development of Jhana as one of the options for fulfilling the "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" instruction.]

I'm not sure how you want us to use that in the context of the current discussion, apart from that there are many different possible sequences of development.

:anjali:
It seemed pertinent, given that the passage had, in close proximity, "body in and of itself" and "vitakka-vicara". I'm not sure how y'all might use it either, but it hadn't been mentioned yet in this context.

In that Sutta, the four brahmaviharas and the four satipatthana are both to be done according to the progression in the section I quoted. I find myself ruminating over how similar the stages are to the standard jhana progression: vitakka-vicara, vicara, a/vitakka-vicara, piti, a/piti, sukha, upekkha. Jhana isn't otherwise mentioned in that Sutta.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Dave!

:anjali:
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Re: four foundations of mindfulness

Post by daverupa »

It could mean that the brahmaviharas and satipatthana are a foundation of practice before, during, and after jhana. They're a framework for all occasions, in other words, not just for during dedicated sitting/walking meditation practice.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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