On the authority of the suttas.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

alan wrote:Not necessary to revere the suttas. But it is imperative to read them.
And if you haven't read them, you're not in a position to interpret them, are you?
I revere the suttas.

You really like to musterbate (Dr. Albert Ellis' term for the cognitively disorting use of should statements) about the suttas, don't you?

And you seem to be stuck in some kind of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking (Dr. David D. Burns' term for cognitively distorting absolutism) about them, don't you?

So, to be clear, you're saying that as a Buddhist, before I can do any interpreting, I have to read every single sutta? When do I know we've read all of them? It seems wise to me to have at least some hermeneutic judgment about this before I read them. Why not wait for the scholars to pinpoint tamperings so I don't have to read those parts? Why not wait until the comparisons with the Agamas are fleshed out more and eliminated Theravadin impositions? Or why not just read the Abhidhamma or some other totality system? And should we read the Vinaya, too? And what about illiterate Buddhists? As Kant pointed out, ought implies can. Is it imperative for them to read them, or can they get away with listening to someone else read them?

Furthermore, reading implies interpretation. So, I infer you mean by "read them", rote memorize all of them, and then and only then start interpreting? Who does that?
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

ground wrote:Either there is immediacy of insight upon eye or ear contact or there is not. If the latter then either the words are abondoned or there arises religious thought (comprising belief and doubt) supported by hope and fear. :sage:
What the heck does that mean, and how does it relate to the topic?
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

Alex123 wrote:IMHO, practical results is what counts.
Pretty good post, Alex.
So in this case we don't want any theory and practice mingling, and if so, doesn't this downplay the importance of right view?
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:A quote from Danielion:
Did the Buddha teach that the suttas are a valid source of authority?

Corollary: are the suttas a proper object for a Buddhist to have faith in?

Add the rapidly growing body of historical-critical scholarship into the mix, and we have a sobering effect on those who believe in the authoritative nature of the texts.
How do we decide what was most likely spoken by the historical buddha and what was not? Mind you, let us not make slippery slope arguments.
Thanks to Polar Buddha for starting this topic and to Tilt for recommending it. :thumbsup:
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Alex123
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by Alex123 »

danieLion wrote:
Alex123 wrote:IMHO, practical results is what counts.
Pretty good post, Alex.
So in this case we don't want any theory and practice mingling, and if so, doesn't this downplay the importance of right view?
Right View should be as "a practice" or "way of life", IMHO. And of course one should keep checking the results as practice is developing and don't cling to written words.

Ultimately one has to use one's own understanding and develop the path. Suttas can offer guidelines and food for though, they are not definitive. Buddha didn't say "Alex you do this", "Daniel you do that".

We are stuck on our own and have to pick what works. Don't cling to traditions or the texts. Find out for yourself.
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Kusala
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by Kusala »

danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:The suttas are our guide, and you should read them.
So, we should revere them like Jews do the Torah, or like Christians do the Bible, or like Muslims do the Koran, or like Mormons do The Book of Mormon, Doctrine of Covenants and Pearl of Great Price?

You can't prove they're inerrant or deserve to be called a Canon. And if you can't prove that, you have no basis for your "thou shalt" ("should').

I read and study them because I want to. The moment I believe I should read them is the moment I turn my religion into a prison.
Comparing Buddhism to Christianity or Isam is like comparing apples to oranges. What makes the suttas invaluable is the fact that we can test it out for ourselves. The Buddha compared his teachings to a raft. The moment we disregard the suttas is the moment we abandon the raft.
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
alan
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by alan »

Why do you revere the suttas, DanieLion?
alan
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by alan »

I've been on and off this page. It's nice to communicate ideas, and share thoughts with like minded people. But one thing that turns me off is the basic lack of reason I sometimes find.
Please, people, use reason when you respond, and speak from your understanding. Don't try to impress me with odd words. And let it be known that I see through self-indulgent nonsense. Our job is to learn. We do it by reading the suttas, practicing, and hearing from others who are honestly on the path.
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

porpoise wrote:
danieLion wrote:Westerners influenced by positivism..
What about westerners influenced by skepticism? ;)
Good point. They often go hand in hand.
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

Kusala wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:The suttas are our guide, and you should read them.
So, we should revere them like Jews do the Torah, or like Christians do the Bible, or like Muslims do the Koran, or like Mormons do The Book of Mormon, Doctrine of Covenants and Pearl of Great Price?

You can't prove they're inerrant or deserve to be called a Canon. And if you can't prove that, you have no basis for your "thou shalt" ("should').

I read and study them because I want to. The moment I believe I should read them is the moment I turn my religion into a prison.
Comparing Buddhism to Christianity or Isam is like comparing apples to oranges. What makes the suttas invaluable is the fact that we can test it out for ourselves. The Buddha compared his teachings to a raft. The moment we disregard the suttas is the moment we abandon the raft.
Whoa!!! Back up, now. I ain't abandoning them. I love them. The Buddha may have compared his teachings to raft, but he didn't compare the suttas as we have them now to a raft.

Also, I'm not comparing Buddhism to other religions in general, but in terms of their attitudes to their sacred texts. In that sense, there are remarkable similarities. Besides, apples and oranges do have some things in common.
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

alan wrote:I've been on and off this page. It's nice to communicate ideas, and share thoughts with like minded people. But one thing that turns me off is the basic lack of reason I sometimes find.
Please, people, use reason when you respond, and speak from your understanding. Don't try to impress me with odd words. And let it be known that I see through self-indulgent nonsense. Our job is to learn. We do it by reading the suttas, practicing, and hearing from others who are honestly on the path.
Who are you addressing?
danieLion
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Re: On the authority of the suttas.

Post by danieLion »

alan wrote:Why do you revere the suttas, DanieLion?
1) They're books. I'm bookish and nerdy.
2) They're ancient, religious texts, the study of which (along with the study of religion) has occupied my attention for years.
3) Because of 2, I've noticed how they outshine other religious texts in terms of sheer bulk (although they might have some Eastern rivals) but more importantly in their accompanying history of handlers making good faith gestures to preserve them as close to the "original" as possible.
4) They aid me in keeping on the path, and are top-notch contemplative aids.
5) Despite the unnecessary excess, I believe they contain the Buddha's "core" teachings.
6) The continuing scholarship on them excites me.
7) They are a living tradition of which I can participate in.
8) They give me a starting point for my investigation of the silly things people constantly say about the Buddha and Buddhism.
9) I usually get a good feeling just from reading them.
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