50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

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atulo
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by atulo »

Fully agreement. Unfortunately most discussions about Nanavira are predominantly about his suicide and whether sotapanna or not. Important are his writings and his understanding of the Dhamma. He was unquestionable controversial because of his refusal of most traditional commentaries and most buddhists can or will not agree with his view.
I agree here. But it seems that for most people Notes on Dhamma are too difficult to discuss and therefore none is prepared to read it, or discuss it. It is much easier to talk controversial facts, as Michael Jackson’s fans do.
My understanding is if one wants to become one then that blocks it off. Also the idea "I am/will be a ...." is an ignorant view that leads to dukkha
I think that is nonsense to aim to be a sotapanna. I think all of us should aim to be Arahats. Sotapanna is only a stage on the path when one doesn’t have any doubts and knows for himself what needs to be done: he or she knows when to relax and when to put more effort in practice (in similar terms speaks also Ajahn Chah).

It is like when we like when we work hard outside and we like to reach a juice in the fridge. If our aim in to reach the fridge-doors is nonsense and that doesn’t help much. But when we aim to get juice and we reach and open the fridge, then we know that juice is there and we know what to do: to drink it. Freedom from greed, hate and delusion is to be extinguished, and not to be more the Noble. I hope that makes some sense, even that it is not very good example.
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tiltbillings
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by tiltbillings »

atulo wrote:
Fully agreement. Unfortunately most discussions about Nanavira are predominantly about his suicide and whether sotapanna or not. Important are his writings and his understanding of the Dhamma. He was unquestionable controversial because of his refusal of most traditional commentaries and most buddhists can or will not agree with his view.
I agree here. But it seems that for most people Notes on Dhamma are too difficult to discuss and therefore none is prepared to read it, or discuss it.
Why complain about people discussing Nanavira's supposed Sotapatti, which is the subject of this thread, or his method of death; rather, show us what is so unique and difficulrt about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by tiltbillings »

http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=43" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://stephenbatchelor.org/existence1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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gavesako
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by gavesako »

BlackBird wrote:When I was staying at the NZ Branch Monastery - Bodhinyanarama, there was a photo of Ajahn Chah with the quote Venerable Gavesako has posted here. When I first arrived it pissed me off.

I thought: "Who does this guy think he is..."
"I want to get enlightened, shouldn't I be striving for this?"
"Why are there so many photos of this guy around, he doesn't seem so special to me!"

The more time that went by, the more I came to realise the truth in Luang Por Chah's words.
It's not that you shouldn't strive for enlightenment
It's that the way to strive for enlightenment is by letting go.

Let go of being a Bodhisattva.
Let go of being an arahant.
In fact, let go of all your attachments.
That is the path.

Now when I think of Ajahn Chah, it's with a heart full of affection, for a man who's words shouldn't always be taken at face value.

With karuna
Jack.

In the beginning, I felt similar, because when one is starting one needs to get going on the path first of all. But Ajahn Chah is aware of that, see: http://ajahnchah.org/book/Path_Peace.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As one goes along, however, the situation changes and -- as Ajahn Chah points out -- one starts to cling to those steps of the practice which should merely be used and let go of.

So then one needs to refine one's practice and work on the more subtle attachments. If you have been around Buddhist circles for long enough, you will notice that the most difficult people to be around are those who believe to have "got somewhere" in their practice, who have some level of "attainment" or other. Such people tend to be very hard-headed and conceited, you cannot really discuss anything with them, because they assume that others simply "don't get it" and are unenlightened puthujjanas. When they lack feedback from a Sangha and appoint themselves to the position of teachers, they may just stay on that track until their dying day and just continue to affirm what they already believe in. Anything you say will just prove to them even more how mistaken you are. So this is what Ajahn Chah is referring to.

In another example, a monk came once to Ajahn Chah and said to him that he believed to have reached the stage of Sotapanna. Ajahn Chah's comment was: "That's just a little bit better than a dog..." and he walked away. So he did not support anybody's sense of identity (sakkaya-ditthi) like some other teachers might do.

Gavesako
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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atulo
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by atulo »

Here are two more websites - Publisher of Ven. Nanavira's works, and other relevant materials.
Path Press: http://www.pathpress.co.cc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Path Press Publications: http://www.pathpresspublications.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many of you did read Notes on Dhamma?
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woini
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by woini »

gavesako wrote: SUICIDE IN BUDDHISM -- POST-CANONICAL DEFLECTIONS

Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari

http://www.metta.lk/english/suicide.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good; also his: http://www.metta.lk/english/euthanasia.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All these three incidents of Godhika, Vakkali and Channa clearly show that the persons here concerned had all gone beyond the stage of 'entertaining any longing for life or continuing the life process' : nàvakaïkhanti jãvitaü. This total detachment or eradication of craving [ samålaü taõhaü abbuyha ] also implied that they were not going to be reborn. In such a situation their act of suicide would be one which is incapable of fruition or bearing fruit. Their behaviour in this context would be in the same category like the criminal acts of murder of Angulimala who committed them prior to his attainment of final liberation. They would in fact, we believe, fall in the category of 'acts only' [ ahosi kamma ] which 'bear no fruit' [ na vipàko ].
From the Buddhist point of view, one would here question the correctness of the patient's decision. It is to be remembered that except in the case of the liberated ones, i.e. those in Nirvana who are not destined to be born again, death begets life anew for everyone. Death does not terminate life, or more precisely the life process. Hence it cannot terminate pain and unhappiness.
conclusions from the quotes, articles, messages above:

SUTTAS: euthanasia only possible among arahants
commentaries: arahants attained liberation shortly after using the knife
euthanasia: not allowed for anyone who is not an arahant, not allowed for anagamis, sottapanas, or anyone else

my conclusions from above correct ? or not ?

apologies if off-topic - mods, can move to new thread if nec.
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Woini,
i don't think it is entirely off topoc but maybe it would be more open (not restricted to Nanavira) if a new thread was started.
I don't think any of the levels would be blameworthy if they opted (on an individual basis, depending on circumstances) for euthanasia, if they are more of a hinderance to their supporters or to their practice than anything else, then I think it would be something they may considder, they are all destined for enlightenment within a maximum of seven lifetimes after all.
Their are comments in the suttas and some of the rules are there so that unscrupulous monks are not a burden on those around them, so it would be a case of (I think anyway) how much of a burden would they need to be befor they opted for that choice. the quality of life even for a monk needs to be at a certain level.

but some food for thought may be found in my earlier post above on page two!

WM
Manapa
woini wrote: SUTTAS: euthanasia only possible among arahants
commentaries: arahants attained liberation shortly after using the knife
euthanasia: not allowed for anyone who is not an arahant, not allowed for anagamis, sottapanas, or anyone else
my conclusions from above correct ? or not ?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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woini
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by woini »

Manapa wrote: i don't think it is entirely off topoc but maybe it would be more open (not restricted to Nanavira) if a new thread was started.
I don't think any of the levels would be blameworthy if they opted (on an individual basis, depending on circumstances) for euthanasia, if they are more of a hinderance to their supporters or to their practice than anything else, then I think it would be something they may considder, they are all destined for enlightenment within a maximum of seven lifetimes after all.
hey Manapa,

That makes sense - thanks. A noble one who is sotappana, + has put down most of the burden - attachment and has different mind state. If this is correct then Nanavira's self-inflicted euthanasia would not negate the possiblity of him being sotapanna.

We don't have direct suttas to confirm? but from inference it does make sense.
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by Cittasanto »

woini wrote:
We don't have direct suttas to confirm? but from inference it does make sense.
:woohoo:
I made sense
:woohoo:
:tongue:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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atulo
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by atulo »

Hello Rhino and moderator,
could you close (lock) this thread since the conversation is not about the anniversary anymore. Thank you.
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BlackBird
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by BlackBird »

gavesako wrote: But Ajahn Chah is aware of that, see: http://ajahnchah.org/book/Path_Peace.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have read but a portion of this good text, but I can see that this is true.
gavesako wrote: As one goes along, however, the situation changes and -- as Ajahn Chah points out -- one starts to cling to those steps of the practice which should merely be used and let go of.

So then one needs to refine one's practice and work on the more subtle attachments. If you have been around Buddhist circles for long enough, you will notice that the most difficult people to be around are those who believe to have "got somewhere" in their practice, who have some level of "attainment" or other. Such people tend to be very hard-headed and conceited, you cannot really discuss anything with them, because they assume that others simply "don't get it" and are unenlightened puthujjanas. When they lack feedback from a Sangha and appoint themselves to the position of teachers, they may just stay on that track until their dying day and just continue to affirm what they already believe in. Anything you say will just prove to them even more how mistaken you are. So this is what Ajahn Chah is referring to.

In another example, a monk came once to Ajahn Chah and said to him that he believed to have reached the stage of Sotapanna. Ajahn Chah's comment was: "That's just a little bit better than a dog..." and he walked away. So he did not support anybody's sense of identity (sakkaya-ditthi) like some other teachers might do.

Gavesako
Well said Venerable Sir, well said :anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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gavesako
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by gavesako »

Interesting wikipedia article about the Jain practice of Sallekhana or "fasting to death" which is considered to be the ultimate ascetic practice.

Here is also a video of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hiwtUTbRT8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by Jechbi »

that's really annoying
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by DNS »

gavesako wrote: Here is also a video of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hiwtUTbRT8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank God, I mean thank Buddha, we follow the majjhima magga (middle way).
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gavesako
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Re: 50th Anniversary of Nanavira's sotapatti

Post by gavesako »

Jechbi wrote:that's really annoying
But good for educational purposes. It would be good to have a whole thread comparing some Buddhist and Jain ideas because the terms they use are often the same, but the meaning is different (cf. Sallekha Sutta in MN, what the Buddha means by "purification"). A lot has to do with how Kamma is understood and the consequences of that.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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