The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Kim OHara »

Thanks, Chris :smile:
Heading back in the general direction of the OP, I will add Ecobuddhism.org http://www.ecobuddhism.org/ to your list.

:namaste:
Kim
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by alan »

I think Thanissaro is at a point in his life where a real breakthrough is possible. He may be writing for himself, and his hardcore students. Most of us will never get to that level of commitment. But I'm glad it exists.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by alan »

In response to the original question, I think it is proper for lay persons to bring the values of Buddhism to the world at large. But we'll be swimming upstream. Most people won't listen. I know, from trying to convince people on my facebook page, that the dumb people outnumber us a million to one. Hooray for organizations that work for change. It's up to you to decide where to spend your time.
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Kim OHara »

alan wrote:In response to the original question, I think it is proper for lay persons to bring the values of Buddhism to the world at large. But we'll be swimming upstream. Most people won't listen. I know, from trying to convince people on my facebook page, that the dumb people outnumber us a million to one. Hooray for organizations that work for change. It's up to you to decide where to spend your time.
Don't worry, Alan - the world is gradually attracting their attention:
111612.jpg
111612.jpg (87.97 KiB) Viewed 3227 times
:namaste:
Kim
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Buckwheat »

Kim O'Hara wrote:...I really can't see that always putting one's own welfare first is anything other than selfishness - therefore directly in opposition to both sila and the dissolution of ego which is a key to liberation.

Sometimes I think I'm emotionally a mahayanist and intellectually a theravadin. This could be one of those times.
:thinking:
Kim
Hi Kim,
I don't recommend thinking "me first" when it comes to worldly gains, only when it comes to spiritual development. There are times when spiritual development dictates we satisfy another person's material needs at the expense of our own material needs. This expression of generosity would have a spiritual benefit that would far outweigh any material loss. The thing I see Ven Thanissaro warning about is developing a sense of self around this idea of sacrifice, becoming attached to it, and then doing things to satisfy that craving that sacrifice both worldly and spiritual welfare. Examples include breaking precepts when "the ends justify the means" or simply running one's body ragged in an effort to achieve a small reduction in worldly suffering. A much higher goal may be to set an example of how to transcend worldly suffering all together, such as cultivating a spiritual well being that is less dependent on worldly well being. This enables worldly sacrifice without destroying the underlying sense of well being.

Of course, selfishness is such a dangerous drug that if one were to miss the mark, self-sacrifice is probably a less addictive and easier habit to break, but I would have to ask somebody with more wisdom to be sure about that.

I guess how this relates back to the OP: when dealing with worldly matters, one should certainly think first about the planet, conserving resources, protecting our health and well being. However, one would be advised to spend even more energy on cultivation of calming and insight into the Four Noble Truths. Such renunciation would probably be good for the environment anyway.

Finally, I would like to point out that if we look at the lifestyle of Ven Thanissaro, when I visited Wat Metta, there seemed to be a great deal of concern and effort put into protecting the environment and resources. Pointing out the spiritual limitations of worldly matters does not indicate he condones an attitude of reckless abandon in terms of worldly matters.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, Buckwheat,
Thanks for a reasonable and encouraging response. In return I should reassure you that I do know - and am grateful - that Ven Thanissaro is a good person and doing great work (as are most seriously practising Theravadins).
However, when you say, "The thing I see Ven Thanissaro warning about is developing a sense of self around this idea of sacrifice, becoming attached to it, and then doing things to satisfy that craving that sacrifice both worldly and spiritual welfare," I have to disagree somewhat. It is something I can agree with but I have to say that is not an obvious interpretation of his words quoted earlier in this thread. And it is still selfish, anyway, saying, "I had better not get involved here or I may wreck my chances of attaining nibbana," OWTTE. (Did I make that obvious enough? :tongue: )
I still believe that compassionate action in the world, when undertaken with mindfulness and the right motivation, is always consistent with the path and never an obstacle to practice - in fact, that some such engagement is essential to practice beyond the preliminary levels.
I suspect that for many members of the sangha, and almost certainly for Ven Thanissaro, that engagement takes the sole form of studying and passing on the dhamma - teaching, in fact. That's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be considered the only appropriate form of engagement.

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
imagemarie
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by imagemarie »

:goodpost:

:anjali:
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Buckwheat »

Hi Kim,
Thanks for your response. I agree that one acting solely for "my chances of attaining nibbana," would be incredibly selfish. However, the intention to "stop adding greed, anger, and delusion to the world" would be a noble pursuit. That goal is nibbana.
Kim O'Hara wrote:...I still believe that compassionate action in the world, when undertaken with mindfulness and the right motivation, is always consistent with the path and never an obstacle to practice - in fact, that some such engagement is essential to practice ...
I couldn't agree more with your statement here. Let us further discuss "the right motivation". There are selfish reasons for performing acts of compassion, such as maintaining a self righteous sense of self. While that would be better than non-compassion, I think the most noble effort is to perform compassionate action as a simple side effect of one's pursuit of liberation, as this approach removes the sense of self but keeps the compassion. I personally have a tendency toward a self-righteous sense of self, which often leads me to make non-compassionate intentions. The only time I feel strongly confident in my ability to act with compassion is when I am not pursuing goals and agendas, not even righteous ones.

I must admit, this may or may not match Ven Thanissaro's intent in his essays. It is only my opinion and the lens through which I read his writings on the topic.
Last edited by Buckwheat on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by Buckwheat »

dhammapal wrote:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:"worthwhile" goals that our culture and its sub-cultures tend to exalt, such as social acceptance, meaningful relationships, stewardship of the planet, etc. These, too, will inevitably lead to suffering.[/b]
Upholding social acceptance as the highest ideal can lead to various unskillful behaviors, the most vile example that comes to mind is Nazi Germany. Upholding meaningful relationships as the highest ideal can lead to various unskillful behaviors, such as prostitution committed during the inevitable moments of loneliness in this life. Upholding stewardship of the planet as the highest ideal can lead to various unskillful behaviors, such as activists who plant bombs or vandalize various facilities they deem unfit for existence.

Upholding the pursuit of nibbana as the highest ideal leads to the cessation of greed, anger, and delusion. In so doing, there will be moments of social acceptance, moments of meaningful relationships, and moments of stewardship of the plant, but when these moments pass, there will not be any vile actions committed in the name of an impermanent ideal.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by DAWN »

It's good seclusion, why nobody preach for seclusion :thinking:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
dhammapal
Posts: 2645
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by dhammapal »

Hi,

Another difficult passage:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Because the Buddha saw how these enlightened qualities of wisdom, compassion, and purity could be developed through the pursuit of happiness, he never told his followers to practice his teachings without expecting any gain in return. He understood that such a demand would create an unhealthy dynamic in the mind. In terms of Western psychology, expecting no gain in return would give license for the super‐ego to run amok. Instead, the Buddha taught that even the principle of renunciation is a trade. You exchange candy for gold, trading lesser pleasures for greater happiness. So he encouraged people to be generous with their time and belongings because of the inner rewards they would receive in return.
From The Problem of Egolessness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by santa100 »

dhammapal wrote: Another difficult passage..
I think Ven. T simply emphasizes the law of kamma: if one sincerely practices the wholesome teachings of the Great Teacher, then of course it will result in great gains and great benefits. I don't think he advocated the attitude of: "If I do this good service to others, what will they give me back in return?". Instead, it's more like: "If I do this service to others, wholesome qualities like peace of mind, sympathetic joy, etc.. WILL arrive". It's a positive confirmation of the truth of kamma..
dhammapal
Posts: 2645
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The proper Buddhist attitude to the planet?

Post by dhammapal »

Hi,

This passage might explain how social withdrawal is not selfish:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:The Karaniya Metta Sutta goes on to say that when you're developing this attitude, you want to protect it in the same way that a mother would protect her only child.
“As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings.”
Some people misread this passage — in fact, many translators have mistranslated it — thinking that the Buddha is telling us to cherish all living beings the same way a mother would cherish her only child. But that's not what he's actually saying. To begin with, he doesn't mention the word "cherish" at all. And instead of drawing a parallel between protecting your only child and protecting other beings, he draws the parallel between protecting the child and protecting your goodwill. This fits in with his other teachings in the Canon. Nowhere does he tell people to throw down their lives to prevent every cruelty and injustice in the world, but he does praise his followers for being willing to throw down their lives for their precepts:
“Just as the ocean is stable and does not overstep its tideline, in the same way my disciples do not — even for the sake of their lives — overstep the training rules I have formulated for them.”
— Udana 5.5

From: Metta Means Goodwill by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
Post Reply