Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana, once one has achieved it, and to enter samsara again (at least in theory)? Or is it completely impossible?
(I do not really expect a definite answer to this question, since no one -- except for a few enlightened beings, perhaps -- knows what Nirvana is like, but I'd be interested in some views nevertheless.)
Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
What if I told you it is?
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Hi pascal,pascal wrote:Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana, once one has achieved it, and to enter samsara again (at least in theory)? Or is it completely impossible?
(I do not really expect a definite answer to this question, since no one -- except for a few enlightened beings, perhaps -- knows what Nirvana is like, but I'd be interested in some views nevertheless.)
Nibanna isn't a place. Its the complete cessation of greed, hatred and delusion.
Kind regards,
Aloka
- Cittasanto
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Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
No, although there are some vague references to a form of temporary liberation using similare terms, Nibbana isn't generally described like that and isn't reversable once it has happened.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Well, if it is possible to leave Nirvana, then it is possible for a being that once entered Nirvana to fall back into Samsara and to suffer again. If this possibility exists, then wouldn't it make Nirvana impermanent, at least in theory?dude wrote:What if I told you it is?
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Hi Aloka,Aloka wrote:Hi pascal,
Nibanna isn't a place. Its the complete cessation of greed, hatred and delusion.
Kind regards,
Aloka
yes, I know that Nibbana isn't a place (this is why I put the word leave in quotation marks, since it cannot be 'left' like, say, a house), but rather a state of consciousness (free from greed, hatred and delusion, as you say). So my question would be if it is possible -- in theory -- for this state of consciousness to change so that greed, hatred and delusion return.
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Thanks for your response.Cittasanto wrote:No, although there are some vague references to a form of temporary liberation using similare terms, Nibbana isn't generally described like that and isn't reversable once it has happened.
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
When you practise well your unskillful volitions and actions V(x) gradually decrease until finally they drop below enlightenment level E and your mind achieves nirvana:
Mind that is freed from greed, hatred and delusion doesn't grasp on anything, there's nothing that could remove it from that calm, stable equilibrium state.
So, the definite answer is: It is not possible to 'leave' Nirvana.
Mind that is freed from greed, hatred and delusion doesn't grasp on anything, there's nothing that could remove it from that calm, stable equilibrium state.
So, the definite answer is: It is not possible to 'leave' Nirvana.
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
If Nirvana is permanent, how can a Buddha appear in this world?pascal wrote:Well, if it is possible to leave Nirvana, then it is possible for a being that once entered Nirvana to fall back into Samsara and to suffer again. If this possibility exists, then wouldn't it make Nirvana impermanent, at least in theory?dude wrote:What if I told you it is?
- retrofuturist
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Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Greetings Pascal,
Consider also the scheme of the "fetters" that are eradicated at each point of nobility.
Metta,
Retro.
Since these consciousnesses are sankharas dependent upon ignorance (as per dependent origination / cessation), it is hard to see how it could be so.pascal wrote:yes, I know that Nibbana isn't a place (this is why I put the word leave in quotation marks, since it cannot be 'left' like, say, a house), but rather a state of consciousness (free from greed, hatred and delusion, as you say). So my question would be if it is possible -- in theory -- for this state of consciousness to change so that greed, hatred and delusion return.
Consider also the scheme of the "fetters" that are eradicated at each point of nobility.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Hehe, a nice way to explain it.ALot wrote:When you practise well your unskillful volitions and actions V(x) gradually decrease until finally they drop below enlightenment level E and your mind achieves nirvana:
Sounds plausible to me, thank you.Mind that is freed from greed, hatred and delusion doesn't grasp on anything, there's nothing that could remove it from that calm, stable equilibrium state.
So, the definite answer is: It is not possible to 'leave' Nirvana.
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Good question. Perhaps he's still 'in Nibbana' (that is, free from greed, hatred and delusion), but yet in this world? Dunno ...dude wrote:If Nirvana is permanent, how can a Buddha appear in this world?
Otherwise, if Nibbana were not permanent, wouldn't this make his teachings obsolete?
Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
Hi Retro,retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pascal,
Since these consciousnesses are sankharas dependent upon ignorance (as per dependent origination / cessation), it is hard to see how it could be so.pascal wrote:yes, I know that Nibbana isn't a place (this is why I put the word leave in quotation marks, since it cannot be 'left' like, say, a house), but rather a state of consciousness (free from greed, hatred and delusion, as you say). So my question would be if it is possible -- in theory -- for this state of consciousness to change so that greed, hatred and delusion return.
Consider also the scheme of the "fetters" that are eradicated at each point of nobility.
Metta,
Retro.
I'm not familiar with this scheme, do you have a link where it is explained? (I'm still in the n00b phase. )
Last edited by pascal on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
So what exactly is Buddha?.....define Buddha.pascal wrote:Good question. Perhaps he's still 'in Nibbana' (that is, free from greed, hatred and delusion), but yet in this world? Dunno ...dude wrote:If Nirvana is permanent, how can a Buddha appear in this world?
Otherwise, if Nibbana were not permanent, wouldn't this make his teachings obsolete?
And the word "he's" (in red).....why is the word "he's" being used?.....Is Buddha a person?
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Re: Is it possible to 'leave' Nirvana?
From A Verb for Nirvana
This may seem like a word-chopper's problem — what can a verb or two do to your practice? — but the idea of nirvana as a place has created severe misunderstandings in the past, and it could easily create misunderstandings now. There was a time when some philosophers in India reasoned that if nirvana is one place and samsara another, then entering into nirvana leaves you stuck: you've limited your range of movement, for you can't get back to samsara. Thus to solve this problem they invented what they thought was a new kind of nirvana: an unestablished nirvana, in which one could be in both places — nirvana and samsara — at once.
However, these philosophers misunderstood two important points about the Buddha's teachings. The first was that neither samsara nor nirvana is a place. Samsara is a process of creating places, even whole worlds, (this is called becoming) and then wandering through them (this is called birth). Nirvana is the end of this process. You may be able to be in two places at once — or even develop a sense of self so infinite that you can occupy all places at once — but you can't feed a process and experience its end at the same time. You're either feeding samsara or you're not. If you feel the need to course freely through both samsara and nirvana, you're simply engaging in more samsara-ing and keeping yourself trapped.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."