anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
dhamma follower
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower »

Dear Mike,
I think that the points that Khun Sujin makes are very important, and worth careful consideration. But, of course, the ideas are not unique to her and her followers. I've heard many meditation teachers discuss this idea of lack of control. Sayadaw U Tejaniya is the most explicit, but almost every teacher I have paid attention to discuss the issue. It's common to hear teachers pointing out that one cannot control one's way into jhana, for example, all one can do is set up conditions
I have attended some retreats under SUT at his centre in Burma. It is true he is, as far as I know, the most explicit about stretching "no control" , and I reckon that he might easily agree with many of Achaan Sujin's points. However, in AS's POV, the very idea of "practice" is somewhat at odds with anattaness. If all dhammas arise because of conditions, how can one predict/expect to have more moments of sati arising during the course of a formal retreat than other moments of daily life? If one equals the intention to have sati with sati itself, isn't it wrong understanding? Putting the intention aside, what is there in a retreat which can create more conditions for sati? Can real sati arise with wrong understanding of its characteristics and conditions?

"practice"- bhavana, understood commonly today as applying certain kinds of technique is explained altogether differently by AS. She would ask questions like "Who and what does the practice?", to which the answer will lead to a serious questioning of the idea of someone applying some technique to be what bhavana really means.

We all have learnt about nama and rupa, about citta, cetasikas, but easily forget to see that they arise now at this very moment. A moment of wrong understanding can not lead to a moment of right understanding. Therefore, right understanding must be there at the first place. And it should not be vague but very precise. The thinking that "now I will observe or I will keep mindfulness" is one of the example of wrong view, because it fails to understand sati as anatta.

That's some of the many details that I think make the difference between AS and other teachers, although they all talk about anatta.
What I disagree with is the extremes that some of KS's students take this argument to, claiming that any attempt at development is doomed to failure. In my view, visiting KS or discussing Dhamma just as much an attempt at control as attempting to meditate. The KS followers I've talked to object to this argument, but I'm afraid that (despite extensive on-line and off-line discussion) I am unable to understand their explanation of the difference between choosing to meditate, and choosing to read or discuss a Dhamma book. I guess I don't have good enough accumulations...
Whether one chooses to go to a retreat or to attend Dhamma discussions with AS, it all happens by condition. The thing is not what one should do, because there's no rule, but whether there is right understanding now. Association with the wise and listening to the true Dhamma are two first conditions for panna, but it is true,if one intends to attend to the discussions with the hope for panna to arise, then it won't work. Achaan says it should be the path of detachment and understanding. Actually, she usually strechts again and again the fact that the developing of panna is a extremely long process: it took the Bodhisatta 24 Buddha's sasana since he was first predicted to become a Buddha in the future. It took Ananda 100000 kappa...With that, all idea of trying to attain something simply drops...

Best rgds,
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mikenz66
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi DF,

Thanks. Of course those are all the same arguments I've seen many times before, so I'm afraid I'm a bit jaded...

I guess it is useful to see explicitly spelled out that, according to these arguments, believing that reading Dhamma book, visiting Kuhn Sujin, or discussing the Dhamma with friends will help to develop right view is just as misguided as thinking that deliberately watching body, feelings, etc, will help to develop right view.

Some of AS's students seemed to be denying that, but I may have been misunderstanding them. It's hard to get my head around the idea that people can have the motivation to fly to Bangkok to visit AS without developing some expectation that it will be helpful to do so...

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower »

Dear Mike,
I guess it is useful to see explicitly spelled out that, according to these arguments, believing that reading Dhamma book, visiting Kuhn Sujin, or discussing the Dhamma with friends will help to develop right view is just as misguided as thinking that deliberately watching body, feelings, etc, will help to develop right view.
Again, Mike, it's not what one does that matters, it is the understanding of anattaness,now. The path is not one of doing but of understanding.
Some of AS's students seemed to be denying that, but I may have been misunderstanding them. It's hard to get my head around the idea that people can have the motivation to fly to Bangkok to visit AS without developing some expectation that it will be helpful to do so
By conditions,

D.F
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mikenz66
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi DF,
dhamma follower wrote: Again, Mike, it's not what one does that matters, it is the understanding of anattaness, now. The path is not one of doing but of understanding.
Of course.

But I can't see how one can avoid the problem that by taking Kuhn Sujin's advice one may be taking action (or inaction) with less understanding than if one acted on some different advice. This suggestion I read/hear that "we have to understand anatta right now" seems to me to be just as much a suggestion of "action" (or inaction) as any other "method".

Unfortunately it seems like I'm just going round the same circuit of discussion that I've been around many times in the last few years. I probably should retire from such conversations... But thank you for your efforts.

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi DF,

Thanks. Of course those are all the same arguments I've seen many times before, so I'm afraid I'm a bit jaded...

I guess it is useful to see explicitly spelled out that, according to these arguments, believing that reading Dhamma book, visiting Kuhn Sujin, or discussing the Dhamma with friends will help to develop right view is just as misguided as thinking that deliberately watching body, feelings, etc, will help to develop right view.

Some of AS's students seemed to be denying that, but I may have been misunderstanding them. It's hard to get my head around the idea that people can have the motivation to fly to Bangkok to visit AS without developing some expectation that it will be helpful to do so...

:anjali:
Mike
I think there should be some knowledge of the conditions for right view, which are of course, hearing and considering correct Dhamma.
Only a Buddha can be enlightened without hearing Dhamma, and even he must have heard it in past lives.

Hence if one has the opportunity to hear Saddhadhamma - especially if it pertains to the heart of the teaching, anatta, then that is something worthy of making effort to travel and listen. As said In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:



"
as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."
Compare this with people like the Indian yogi who is revered for holding his hand up in the air for over 15 years. He believes tapas is the way to go beyond. Some people would even rather sit in a jungle than listen to Dhamma-..

It is not about action as DF said, it is only about understanding- and that has to become firm at the theoretical level.

Again as DF has stressed Right View is key:
Only if there is right view is the eightfactored path being developed: "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121"
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk »

Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala:
here is the descrption of (viriya)Effort in the Abidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):

Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor."

Sounded nice until that last phrase didn't it. That is what wrong effort is.

Or Concentration:
As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily mean anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha: ""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration, WRONG concentration .'"------------
However, because these wrong concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than normal daily life they are naturally attractive and deceiving.

Soooo , this Dhamma takes time to understand: listening and considering are essential. That is why one might fly to Bangkok to listen and discuss. One might value careful study , and certainly , I believe, one will take seriously the Abhidhamma and see that the heart of the Dhamma is anatta .
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robertk
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk »

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/127922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dear friends,
Last month A. Sujin was in Poland.

during a walk at noon.

Acharn: Each moment is once in a lifetime, even a moment of sadness.
It never comes back. That is all. That is the way to have less
clinging. There must be the understanding of realities as not self,
otherwise it does not work at all.

Sarah: You said to Lukas that sadness seems so great, but that it is
nothing compared to what will come. Did you mean in this life or in
other lives?

Acharn: It depends on pa~n~naa whether it can see that. Sadness now
is not the same as sadness a moment ago.

Sarah: you often talk about passing a test. There cannot be the
passing of a test with this little bit of sadness now. What will it
be when it is something serious?

Acharn: One can see that the manner of development of pa~n~naa is
little by little. Otherwise there will not be great pa~n~naa. When
sound appears, think of nothing at all, no thing, except sound. Or
nothing at all, except hardness, only that is reality.

*******

Nina.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beeblebrox
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by beeblebrox »

dhamma follower wrote: If we say, everything is anatta, everything arises and pass away by conditions, then think that we can intentionally sit and walk for sati to arise, isn't it a contradiction?
It only seems like a contradiction if there is still a view of self.

If some people say that there is no such thing as "free will" because of anatta... then they're actually still interpreting this idea of "free will" through the view of self. It's obvious to me that there is still such a thing as "free will"... people around you still do what they want, whether you want them to or not... it just has nothing to do with self.

It seems like most of confusion in this thread probably comes from some subtle views of self (or subtle misgrasping of anatta), that hasn't been noticed... due to the lack of right concentration, or mindfulness.

The way that the Buddha taught kamma... I think that this is probably one of the important clues on how we should approach his concept of anatta correctly.
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by daverupa »

beeblebrox wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: If we say, everything is anatta, everything arises and pass away by conditions, then think that we can intentionally sit and walk for sati to arise, isn't it a contradiction?
It only seems like a contradiction if there is still a view of self.

If some people say that there is no such thing as "free will" because of anatta... then they're actually still interpreting this idea of "free will" through the view of self. It's obvious to me that there is still such a thing as "free will"... people around you still do what they want, whether you want them to or not... it just has nothing to do with self.

It seems like most of confusion in this thread probably comes from some subtle views of self (or subtle misgrasping of anatta), that hasn't been noticed... due to the lack of right concentration, or mindfulness.

The way that the Buddha taught kamma... I think that this is probably one of the important clues on how we should approach his concept of anatta correctly.
:goodpost:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Robert,
robertk wrote: Soooo , this Dhamma takes time to understand: listening and considering are essential. That is why one might fly to Bangkok to listen and discuss. One might value careful study , and certainly , I believe, one will take seriously the Abhidhamma and see that the heart of the Dhamma is anatta .
So, putting aside particular technical issues, there is the method of flying to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma, which will influence one's actions in particular directions, and there are methods of listening and discussing with other teachers and students, which will influence one's actions in different directions.

As I have said, I've learned a lot from conversations with you and other KS students, and, as you know, I have attempted to take the arguments seriously. However, I am still struck by the apparent lack of logic in the claim (by some) that the approach is completely free of desires, intentions, and views.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower »

Dear Rob,

Thanks for providing with textual support!

I think one of the difficulty for many people to accept this approach is that they don't see how correct intellectual understanding and wise consideration lead to direct awareness of reality. That's why there is usually the reaction like: "ok, we learn about citta and citasika in theory, then what? how to apply into practice?"

Do you have any material about that at hands?

Brgds,

Tam


robertk wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi DF,

Thanks. Of course those are all the same arguments I've seen many times before, so I'm afraid I'm a bit jaded...

I guess it is useful to see explicitly spelled out that, according to these arguments, believing that reading Dhamma book, visiting Kuhn Sujin, or discussing the Dhamma with friends will help to develop right view is just as misguided as thinking that deliberately watching body, feelings, etc, will help to develop right view.

Some of AS's students seemed to be denying that, but I may have been misunderstanding them. It's hard to get my head around the idea that people can have the motivation to fly to Bangkok to visit AS without developing some expectation that it will be helpful to do so...

:anjali:
Mike
I think there should be some knowledge of the conditions for right view, which are of course, hearing and considering correct Dhamma.
Only a Buddha can be enlightened without hearing Dhamma, and even he must have heard it in past lives.

Hence if one has the opportunity to hear Saddhadhamma - especially if it pertains to the heart of the teaching, anatta, then that is something worthy of making effort to travel and listen. As said In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:



"
as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."
Compare this with people like the Indian yogi who is revered for holding his hand up in the air for over 15 years. He believes tapas is the way to go beyond. Some people would even rather sit in a jungle than listen to Dhamma-..

It is not about action as DF said, it is only about understanding- and that has to become firm at the theoretical level.

Again as DF has stressed Right View is key:
Only if there is right view is the eightfactored path being developed: "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121"
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower »

beeblebrox wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: If we say, everything is anatta, everything arises and pass away by conditions, then think that we can intentionally sit and walk for sati to arise, isn't it a contradiction?
It only seems like a contradiction if there is still a view of self
I hope you will tell me precisely how?
It's obvious to me that there is still such a thing as "free will"... people around you still do what they want, whether you want them to or not... it just has nothing to do with self.
Can you tell me what cetasika this "free-will" refers too? As far as the teaching is concerned, people are doing this or that because of wholesome or unwholesome intention, which is also a conditioned dhamma. Even if people seem to do what they want, that wanting is a conditioned dhamma.
The way that the Buddha taught kamma... I think that this is probably one of the important clues on how we should approach his concept of anatta correctly
Kamma and anatta have no problem. There is kamma and the result of kamma, not owner of kamma nor its result. That's all.

Brgds,
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower »

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks Robert,
robertk wrote: Soooo , this Dhamma takes time to understand: listening and considering are essential. That is why one might fly to Bangkok to listen and discuss. One might value careful study , and certainly , I believe, one will take seriously the Abhidhamma and see that the heart of the Dhamma is anatta .
So, putting aside particular technical issues, there is the method of flying to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma, which will influence one's actions in particular directions, and there are methods of listening and discussing with other teachers and students, which will influence one's actions in different directions.

As I have said, I've learned a lot from conversations with you and other KS students, and, as you know, I have attempted to take the arguments seriously. However, I am still struck by the apparent lack of logic in the claim (by some) that the approach is completely free of desires, intentions, and views.

:anjali:
Mike
Dear Mike,

At the Buddha time, there were people who came to listen to the Buddha, and others came to listen to other teachers...So there is certainly a difference made whether what one listens to is the right Dhamma or not. You might then argue that they all teach the Buddha dhamma, but this should be carefully examined, whether what someone teaches (their understanding of the Buddha's words) is in accordance with the truth, that is "sabe dhamma anatta" among other key messages.
And again, there is no method such as flying to BKK or discussing. These things all happen by condition and should be understood as such. Only each moment of right understanding is counted as moment of the path, it has nothing to do with s.o, where, and how.

Brgrds
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mikenz66
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi, DF,

Yes, thanks. I think we will simply have to agree to differ whether or not the KS approach is or is not a method, or, for that matter, whether it is more (or less) correct than other methods. That question clearly will not be decided by discussion amongst unawakened beings.

However, you make some useful points to keep in mind.

:anjali:
Mike
beeblebrox
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by beeblebrox »

dhamma follower wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: If we say, everything is anatta, everything arises and pass away by conditions, then think that we can intentionally sit and walk for sati to arise, isn't it a contradiction?
It only seems like a contradiction if there is still a view of self
I hope you will tell me precisely how?
I will try... but could you tell me where you saw the contradiction?
dhamma follower wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:It's obvious to me that there is still such a thing as "free will"... people around you still do what they want, whether you want them to or not... it just has nothing to do with self.
Can you tell me what cetasika this "free-will" refers too?
According to the title of this thread, it seems like "free will" is seen as cetana.
dhamma follower wrote: As far as the teaching is concerned, people are doing this or that because of wholesome or unwholesome intention, which is also a conditioned dhamma. Even if people seem to do what they want, that wanting is a conditioned dhamma.

If that was the way you viewed the intention, then why see the contradiction earlier on?
dhamma follower wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:The way that the Buddha taught kamma... I think that this is probably one of the important clues on how we should approach his concept of anatta correctly
Kamma and anatta have no problem. There is kamma and the result of kamma, not owner of kamma nor its result. That's all.
There are few different ways of approaching anatta... I don't think that all of them could be seen as right views. That was why the comment above.
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