MN 117 has been tampered with

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JhanaStream
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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:04 am

Sekha wrote: My point is this:
1) every right view is a factor of the path
2) saying that there is a right view 'saasava' is in contradiction with statements made in other suttas
Hello Sekha

I would encourage you to find a sutta that explains the 1st sort of right view ends the asava. MN 60 is a discourse about the 1st sort of right view & I do not recall it mentioning ending the asava. Instead, I recall it explaining the 1st sort of right view results in the Three Skilful Actions and rebirth in heaven.

I can only recollect sutta that explain the 2nd sort of (lokuttara ) right view (such as the Four Noble Truths or the Three Characteristics) as the means of ending the asava.
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 4
And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41
He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed

MN 121
:candle:
Sekha wrote:I have to correct myself. I have read my article again and I did find out that some teachings of the Buddha, although they ultimately lead to Nibbana, may lead in between to attachment to *favorable* rebirth. The right view that may have lead that brahman to the Brahma world is a factor of the path, and it will lead him to Nibbana
This view is new to me, which appears to explain mere morality will ultimately lead to Nibbana. My understanding is only the extinguishing of craving & self-view can leads to Nibbana. It is my understanding that it is impossible for only the morality factors in the 1st sort of right view to result in Nibbana.
Sekha wrote:Just the same way as the path uses desire (chanda) as a basis for the four right strivings that lead ultimately to the cessation of desire.
My understanding is the four right strivings can be lokuttara dhamma, as they are fulfilled with vimamsa , which is a wisdom factor. The 4 right strivings are including with the 4 satipatthana, the 4 right efforts, the 5 faculties, the 5 powers, the 7 factors of enlightenment & the 8 fold path in the 37 bodhipakiyadhammas, i.e., the 37 enlightenment dhammas.

Chanda is not necessarily craving & can be lokuttara. My recollection is the discourse about chandha ending chanda was spoken by Ananda, who was prone to error. Nibbana is the destruction of craving (tanha) rather than the destruction of chanda (zeal; path devotion).

:reading:

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Post by Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:21 am

Sylvester wrote: I note that "sa-" in bahubbīhi compounds always connote accompaniment or possession. Your explanation of this compound as a relation of "connection" is usually served by the suffix -ika, -ima or -iya, but no such āsava compound exists. Might you be able to point me to where your explanation of sa- might be attested?
It simply comes from the PTSD: "prefix, used as first pt. of com- pounds, is the sense of "with," possessed of, having, same as"
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/dict-pe/dictpe-25-s.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sylvester wrote: I believe AN 10.139 needs to be translated differently. Note that the sutta contrasts 2 sets of 10 factors. The analysis, as is typical of sutta analyses of sets, is to apply the predicate to the whole set, and not to its individual members. Note that ayaṃ is in the singular (= this), as is the verb vuccati, reinforced by dhammo (nominative singular). Your translation would have required the Pali to have been "ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, anāsavā dhammā ti". Clearly, the singular demonstrative pronoun, verb and noun are referring to each set of 10, rather than each of the 10 members of the set.
Quite correct. But I guess I took upon myself to do this simplification because 'this is the dhamma saasava' sounds a bit odd, it might have been sometime around 2 am when I was not clearly awaken yet. I should correct this. Thanks for the report
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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:35 am

JhanaStream wrote: I would encourage you to find a sutta that explains the 1st sort of right view ends the asava. MN 60 is a discourse about the 1st sort of right view & I do not recall it mentioning ending the asava. Instead, I recall it explaining the 1st sort of right view results in the Three Skilful Actions and rebirth in heaven.
I will look for that, but no guarantee there is one.
JhanaStream wrote: This view is new to me, which appears to explain mere morality will ultimately lead to Nibbana. My understanding is only the extinguishing of craving & self-view can leads to Nibbana. It is my understanding that it is impossible for only the morality factors in the 1st sort of right view to result in Nibbana.
well, morality accompanied with buddhe, dhamme, sanghe aveccappasada results in sotapatti... see the sotapatti samyutta. and I think there is one sutta where the Buddha states that whoever is virtuous enough gets whatever he longs for. I shall try to find which sutta it is. It is quoted on the back cover of the first book there: http://www.sasanarakkha.org/publication.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:Just the same way as the path uses desire (chanda) as a basis for the four right strivings that lead ultimately to the cessation of desire.
My understanding is the four right strivings can be lokuttara dhamma, as they are fulfilled with vimamsa , which is a wisdom factor. The 4 right strivings are including with the 4 satipatthana, the 4 right efforts, the 5 faculties, the 5 powers, the 7 factors of enlightenment & the 8 fold path in the 37 bodhipakiyadhammas, i.e., the 37 enlightenment dhammas.

Chanda is not necessarily craving & can be lokuttara. My recollection is the discourse about chandha ending chanda was spoken by Ananda, who was prone to error. Nibbana is the destruction of craving (tanha) rather than the destruction of chanda (zeal; path devotion).
We are saying the same thing. The Buddha uses mental defilements to end mental defilements. And chanda, tanha, lobha etc. all cease with Nibbana. So, the path leads to the cessation of them all.
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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Post by Sylvester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:53 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sylvester,

I guess I had the impression that Buddhaghosa back-translated that early commentary that you speak of into Pali. In the Visuddhimagga he sometimes compares the "reciters" of the different nikayas:
Hi Mike

Clearly, the Commentaries that Ven B had to work with were the Sinhalese ones. Those would have contained both the Mahavihara stuff, as well as the stuff that can be found in the Agamas. I think one of the axioms of Textual Criticism suggests that the more frequent the occurence of a text across different editions, the older the attestation. So to the extent that Buddhaghosa records Commentarial ideas that can found in the Agama sutras, Textual Criticism would say those Commentarial memes are old stock. Unless you were one of those wicked naysayers like Schopen who believes that the distribution of memes across the North and South were due to "levelling". :stirthepot:

Yup, he does refer to the different reciters. I think he noted the Digha reciters' seeming dissent to the Abhidhamma deserving its own Pitaka (but my recollection of that might be faulty...). But by the time of Ven B, I think he was recording the contemporary status of the reciters according to how the Pali Canon was organised. Norman's and Ven Analayo's references to the "reciters" would have been to the reciters of the proto-Nikayas/Agamas, that elusive Ur-Canon of pre-sectarian Buddhism.

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Post by daverupa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Just as an aside:

The Sarvastivadins and the Sautrantikas argued over certain dhammas (prapti, aprapti) while the Theravada, "probably outside this argument", ended up positing bhavanga to address the same issue. (Dharma: Its Early History in Law, Religion, and Narrative, by Alf Hiltebeitel, p. 145-6)

Additionally, the Pali Vinaya doesn't seem to have to deal with dharmasastra laws, while the other Vinayas do - so, it's possible that Sri Lanka was becoming isolated from mainland Indian Buddhism earlier and more thoroughly than we might otherwise have expected.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:44 pm

Sekha wrote:We are saying the same thing. The Buddha uses mental defilements to end mental defilements. And chanda, tanha, lobha etc. all cease with Nibbana. So, the path leads to the cessation of them all.
Sekha

We are not saying the same thing because I did not say chanda (dhammic devotion) is a mental defilement (kilesa). Please re-read my post. Chanda is a path factor, similar to saddha (trust).

:candle:
Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, chanda, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

MN 11

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:16 am

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:Just the same way as the path uses desire (chanda) as a basis for the four right strivings that lead ultimately to the cessation of desire.
(...)
Chanda is not necessarily craving & can be lokuttara. My recollection is the discourse about chandha ending chanda was spoken by Ananda, who was prone to error. Nibbana is the destruction of craving (tanha) rather than the destruction of chanda (zeal; path devotion).
JhanaStream wrote: We are not saying the same thing because I did not say chanda (dhammic devotion) is a mental defilement (kilesa). Please re-read my post. Chanda is a path factor, similar to saddha (trust).
I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse, it is supported by SN 51.15:
Kim·atthiyaṃ samaṇe gotame brahma·cariyaṃ vussatī ti?
For what purpose is the brahmic life lived under the ascetic Gotama?

Chanda·p·pahān·atthaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhagavati brahma·cariyaṃ vussatī ti.
It is for the purpose of abandoning desire, brahman, that the brahmic life is lived under the ascetic Gotama.
:namaste:
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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Post by Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:38 am

oops I just realized that SN 51.15 is also uttered by Ananda.
But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.
Anyway, chanda, chandaraga, raga, tanha, lobha, abhijjha - all those terms certainly have subtle differences (and they must have had some from one kingdom to another even at the time of the Buddha) but they basically all mean more or less the same thing, as do the words desire, craving, avidity, covetousness, greed, lust etc.

now,
:focus:
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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:33 pm

Sekha wrote:But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.
My understanding is Ananda was not an arahant when that discourse was reported to have been spoken. Ananda reportedly attained arahantship after Buddha's passing.
Sekha wrote:I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse...
Obviously Ananda's discourse does not match these utterings below:
In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power [which include chandha]... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

MN 118
There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on chanda & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This chanda of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

When a monk has thus developed & pursued the four bases of power, he experiences manifold supranormal powers...he hears — by means of the divine ear-element...he knows the citta of other beings...he recollects his manifold past nivesa...by means of the divine eye he discerns...through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free citta-release & discernment-release, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now...this is how these four bases of power [which include chanda], when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit.

SN 51.20
:candle:
Sekha wrote:Anyway, chanda, chandaraga, raga, tanha, lobha, abhijjha - all those terms certainly have subtle differences but they basically all mean more or less the same thing, as do the words desire, craving, avidity, covetousness, greed, lust etc.
That is not so. Chanda is a generic term, which can be used in a two-fold sense, either wholesome or unwholesome. Where as the other terms are exclusively unwholesome. Of the following verse, the original commentaries interpreted it as thus:
Sabbe dhamma mulaka chanda

All dhamma practises are rooted in chanda.

AN 10.58
Are you denying the previous quote posted that in the first seven jhanas, Sariputta's mind had the factor of chandha, including in the 4th, which is a state of purity?

:candle:

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:53 pm

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.
My understanding is Ananda was not an arahant when that discourse was reported to have been spoken. Ananda reportedly attained arahantship after Buddha's passing.
ok... and how do you prove that?
And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse...
Obviously Ananda's discourse does not match these utterings below:
In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power [which include chandha]... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

MN 118
There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on chanda & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This chanda of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

When a monk has thus developed & pursued the four bases of power, he experiences manifold supranormal powers...he hears — by means of the divine ear-element...he knows the citta of other beings...he recollects his manifold past nivesa...by means of the divine eye he discerns...through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free citta-release & discernment-release, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now...this is how these four bases of power [which include chanda], when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit.

SN 51.20
well.. I don't see where the contradiction is.. You seem to consider that chanda is something like a bag that the meditator keeps filling and which therefore becomes ever bigger. I think we need to implement the understanding of inconstancy here. My understanding is that one develops every time a different type of chanda, that gets constantly refined along the way, and which is tailored to the type and 'size' of the defilements it aims to eradicate, and at the end, since the defilements have become so weak and 'small', chanda becomes so subtle that it eventually vanishes.

See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:

MN 22: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."
:focus:
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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Sekha wrote:ok... and how do you prove that?
At AN 4.159, Ananda uses the same line of reasoning, explaining in dependence on craving, one abandons craving; in dependence on conceit, one abandons conceit. Thus, in 51.15, Ananda seems to be using chanda in the unwholesome sense, despite the discourse appearing in the Iddhipada Samyutta, which are wholesome.

I think the onus rests upon you, to demonstrate Buddha taught in dependence on craving, one abandons craving.
Sekha wrote:And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?
ok... and how do you prove that Ananda was a sotapanna when these discourses were uttered?
Sekha wrote:See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:
My response here is simply you have quoted MN 22 out of context. I read MN 22 as explaining good dhammas are not attached to & used for attacking others and for defending in debate. I read MN 22 as not explaining the mind of the arahant become void of good dhammas, such as void of wisdom. MN 12 reports:
Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.
:candle:

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:45 pm

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:ok... and how do you prove that?
At AN 4.159, Ananda uses the same line of reasoning, explaining in dependence on craving, one abandons craving; in dependence on conceit, one abandons conceit. Thus, in 51.15, Ananda seems to be using chanda in the unwholesome sense, despite the discourse appearing in the Iddhipada Samyutta, which are wholesome.
so what? Anyone will agree that Ananda knows better than you the meaning of chanda! Why could it not have both a wholesome as well as an unwholesome side, just like the word 'desire'?
JhanaStream wrote: I think the onus rests upon you, to demonstrate Buddha taught in dependence on craving, one abandons craving.
This is quite easy, my friend. In dependence on the four right strivings, ie. in dependence on chanda, one cultivates dispassion, which is described at AN 10.60 for example:
There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications (= sabba·saṅkhāra·samatha), the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of dispassion.
And since chanda is a saṅkhāra, it is abandoned like any other saṅkhāra. So on dependence on chanda, one eventually abandons chanda. Simple.
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?
ok... and how do you prove that Ananda was a sotapanna when these discourses were uttered?
well, you're right, I can't prove it either. But the contrary is just very improbable, and on the other hand, since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant, provided it is true that he actually became one soon after, just before the first council.

And anyway, who are you to say that Ananda was wrong, and that you know the Dhamma better than him? You need some pretty damn good backup for such a claim, and you come up with rather weak evidences.
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:
My response here is simply you have quoted MN 22 out of context. I read MN 22 as explaining good dhammas are not attached to & used for attacking others and for defending in debate. I read MN 22 is not explaining the mind of the arahant become void of good dhammas, such as void of wisdom.
The simile of the raft says that having used the Dhamma, one lets go of it. Just as having used chanda as a basis for the four right strivings, one lets go of it. I repeat what I said just above, and of which you don't seem to have taken any note: the wholesome chanda is not like a bag that keeps being filled with wholesome stuff. It appears to be rather like a knife that gets sharpened all the time until it gets completely worn out and disappears.

:focus: :focus: :focus:
Last edited by Sekha on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Sekha wrote: Anyone will agree that Ananda knows better than you the meaning of chanda! Why could it not have both a wholesome as well as an unwholesome side, just like the word 'desire'?
You are certainly not taking a firm refuge there, to rely on Ananda, who was prone to many misunderstandings in the Nikayas. As for your 2nd point, since when did craving (tanha) have whoelsome side?
Sekha wrote:...since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant
For me, the evidence stacks up against this. In AN 4.159, it seems an affected bhikkhuni came to Ananda to flirt with him. If Ananda was an arahant, it is questionable whether that would have occured. Regardless, I already gave the opportunity for you to provide evidence for many of your claims, to which you did not respond, such as:

1. providing a sutta where the 1st sort of right view resulted in Nibbana

2. provide a discourse where Buddha taught craving & conceit are a means for their abandonment

As for your other assertions, about the 'calming/stilling of sankhara', I may possibly suggest another interpretation on another occassion.

With metta

8-)

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Post by Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:26 pm

ok never mind, my friend. This discussion has gone far off topic, you are not consistent in your statements and you seem to merely aim at using any means to contradict me. I won't keep arguing in these conditions.
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JhanaStream
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:08 am

Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Post by JhanaStream » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:30 pm

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:...since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant
For me, the evidence stacks up against this. In AN 4.159, it seems an affected bhikkhuni came to Ananda to flirt with him. If Ananda was an arahant, it is questionable whether that would have occured.
To add. It is stated Ananda was the same age as the Buddha. Thus, do we believe a bhikkhuni, affected by sexual lust, called upon Ananda at age 80 or more, when he was arahant?

:heart:
His unique position had already begun before his birth. He came to earth, just as the Buddha did, from the Tusita heaven, and was born on the same day as he and in the same caste, namely the warrior caste of the royal family of the Sakyas. Their fathers were brothers, so that Ananda was the Buddha's cousin. He had three brothers, Anuruddha, Mahanama, Pandu, and one sister, Rohini.

Ananda: The Guardian of the Dhamma: by Hellmuth Hecker
This Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty has been set rolling and cannot be stopped by any contemplative or brahman or deva or Mara and Brahma or anyone at all in the world.

If any brahman or contemplative might think that this Great Forty Dhamma discourse should be censured & rejected, there are ten legitimate implications of his statement that would form grounds for censuring him here & now.

MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

:focus:

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