Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DAWN
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:52 pm

Dan74 wrote: Precisely, even "going against dhammas", "judging dhammas", etc - all this is perfect too. Because these are dhammas too.

Such teachings can be helpful to end the wasteful inner fighting and instead simply attend carefully. IMO.
Yes, anyway we cant go against the flow. But it's a forum, so we have to speak about somethink, get some debate etc, you know.. ;)
It's helpful for some one who dont see anatta, and have some expectations about dhammas, it's true.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
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DAWN
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:57 pm

beeblebrox wrote: Hi Dawn... perfection is just brahmin foolishness. They tried use that as an excuse for their own mess of a caste system... where it's possible for a fool be a brahmin, and for a human being to be born untouchable... not to mention all of their messy sacrifices of animals.

Dawn, a messy room is impermanent. That is why it's possible to clean it up. This is where the real liberation lies... not the perfection of anything. Especially not the ones that are considered blamable... by the wise, like your mother for example.

The perferction of a mess is just a brahmin's foolishness. I'm glad that the Buddha debunked it, for the good of everyone.
There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess. :shrug:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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beeblebrox
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by beeblebrox » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:05 pm

DAWN wrote: There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess.
According to the brahmins during the Buddha's time, their caste system was perfect... where the high castes would be born from the Brahma's mouth, and low castes would be born from his foot. Do you see any foolishness in that at all? The Buddha did... and he took them to task. Let's not turn the Dhamma into a system like that, again.

:anjali:

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DAWN
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:23 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
DAWN wrote: There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess.
According to the brahmins during the Buddha's time, their caste system was perfect... where the high castes would be born from the Brahma's mouth, and low castes would be born from his foot. Do you see any foolishness in that at all? The Buddha did... and he took them to task. Let's not turn the Dhamma into a system like that, again.

:anjali:
I see foolishness in birning childrens, in generaly.
Birn a children is the most egoistic and evil thing that we can do, so, how Buddha said, is the origination of whole mass of suffering, and cast system take their part in this suffering. And it's true that cast system is the system of "identity", and all identity is the perfect condition to procreation, to procreation of suffering, so i see it like foolishness.

1. Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

Metta for all living beings and their parents. Like Jesus said "they dont know what they do"
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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acinteyyo
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by acinteyyo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:48 pm

DAWN wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?
Yes it is. Dhammas are perfect in their conditions.

They seems to be perfect on relative point of view and absolute point of view, because they are in "harmony" on both. Do i mistake?
Why should anyone make an end to suffering then?
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:"Dharmas are without blame."
Does that apply even to lobha-mula-cittas that are characterised blaming something?
Of course.
If not, wouldn't that be establishing a duality between experience and experiencer?
Why would it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:49 am

Greetings,

Alright, stepping back a bit...

Samsaric existence is founded on sankhata-dhammas. If ""Dharmas are without blame", this means that the sum of samsaric existence is without blame either since all the dhammas that constitute it are "without blame".

Yet, there is something called "blame", and experience of "blaming" or being "blamed"... and that "blame" does not fall outside the dominion of samsaric existence.

So then, what is it if it's not a dhamma?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Alright, stepping back a bit...

Samsaric existence is founded on sankhata-dhammas. If ""Dharmas are without blame", this means that the sum of samsaric existence is without blame either since all the dhammas that constitute it are "without blame".

Yet, there is something called "blame", and experience of "blaming" or being "blamed"... and that "blame" does not fall outside the dominion of samsaric existence.

So then, what is it if it's not a dhamma?
And a dhamma is what it is dependent upon causes and conditions, conditioning and conditioned, no different in its nature (nibbana aside) from any other dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:34 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:And a dhamma is what it is dependent upon causes and conditions, conditioning and conditioned, no different in its nature (nibbana aside) from any other dhamma.
Dhammas share those common characteristics yes, but not all sankhata-dhammas are the same. The use of wording like "no different in its nature... from any other dhamma" obscures that there is a qualitative aspect to dhammas that goes beyond mere ti-lakkhana.

If all sankhata-dhammas were all the same, the Abhidhamma Pitaka could be written on one page.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: fixed quote markers
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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ground
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by ground » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:12 am

DAWN wrote:
ground wrote:
DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?
There is dependent arising and dependent cessation. Where and when does perfection arise? Where and when does imperfection arise? :sage:
By following your question i can answer that "in dependent arising perfection arise".
If perfection is understood as mere idea, then yes.
DAWN wrote: I see what you mean, i agree with you, there is no any perfect dhamma, there is no any dhamma in harmony, there is just pefection there is just harmony.
Actually you agree with your interpretation of my words, not more and not less.
DAWN wrote: But actualy is not the true question, the true question of this topic is if peoples see perfection or they see imperfection.
Whatever is seen arises dependently.
DAWN wrote: Buddha say that sankharas are dukkha, they are imperfect (only when the mind is full of difilements?), but we can see, here and now that they are actualy perfect by nature.
Sankharas are just that: sankharas. And imputation of imperfection or perfection is just that: (another) sankhara. So where is the sankhara that is either perfect or imperfect in the first place? :sage:

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:37 am

retrofuturist wrote: there is a qualitative aspect to dhammas that goes beyond mere ti-lakkhana.
Sure; however, the three characteristics are not "mere." Dhammas may be wholesome or not or neither, but within each experience is the potential for insight. Dhammas are what they are. We either get lost in thought or we pay attention.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DAWN
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:31 am

Ground, it's true :anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:39 am

acinteyyo wrote: Why should anyone make an end to suffering then?
In my opinion the aim is not to stop dhammas, but to stop suffering about them. Purify the vision.

But if we watch deeply, we see that "dhammas are" because "suffering is", they are like a shadow of impurity, so with end of suffering, dhammas disapears.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by acinteyyo » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:22 pm

DAWN wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?
Yes it is. Dhammas are perfect in their conditions.
They seems to be perfect on relative point of view and absolute point of view, because they are in "harmony" on both. Do i mistake?
acinteyyo wrote:Why should anyone make an end to suffering then?
DAWN wrote:In my opinion the aim is not to stop dhammas, but to stop suffering about them. Purify the vision.
But if we watch deeply, we see that "dhammas are" because "suffering is", they are like a shadow of impurity, so with end of suffering, dhammas disapears.
I can't follow your line of thought. You agreed that according to your definition everything is perfect the way it is.
Therefore I asked why anyone should make an end to suffering then. I didn't ask why one should stop dhammas. I asked why stop suffering, if everything is perfect the way it is, as you think?
dhammas aren't because suffering is and with the end of suffering dhammas do not disapear. With the end of ignorance sankhara end but not all dhammas.
Can you explain what you mean with your last sentence, particularly this part: "we see that "dhammas are" because "suffering is",... , so with end of suffering, dhammas disapears"

best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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DAWN
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Post by DAWN » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:45 pm

acinteyyo wrote: I can't follow your line of thought. You agreed that according to your definition everything is perfect the way it is.
Therefore I asked why anyone should make an end to suffering then. I didn't ask why one should stop dhammas. I asked why stop suffering, if everything is perfect the way it is, as you think?
dhammas aren't because suffering is and with the end of suffering dhammas do not disapear. With the end of ignorance sankharà end but not all dhammas.
Can you explain what you mean with your last sentence, particularly this part: "we see that "dhammas are" because "suffering is",... , so with end of suffering, dhammas disapears"

best wishes, acinteyyo
Why stop suffering? Good question, because suffering is perfect too. Perharps stop suffering about suffering :spy: :smile:

By last words i mean that after parinibbana there is no dhammas, that we experiance dhammas because we suffer.

I dont know if it usefull for others to understand the perfection and harmony of Samsara, but it helps me to see dhammas as they are, and dont judge them, dont suffer about them, see Nibbana in Samsara.
Just observe how rainbow of shines.

In my opinion suffering is not any quality of dhammas, suffering is illusion, a defilement caused by ignorance.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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