Pleasure born of non-clinging

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Sylvester
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by Sylvester » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:24 pm

Hi Mike

I take the view that sukha/pleasure is hedonic tone that falls within kāyika vedanā (bodily feeling). Owing to rāgānusaya (the latent tendency to lust), the normal emotional response to pleasure is passion for that pleasure: MN 44.

Yet, it seems pretty clear from those suttas dealing with satipaṭṭhāna that lust/passion is not inevitable and it is possible to establish equanimity as the emotional response/cetasika vedanā to pleasure : MN 148. So, yes, I would agree that the 1st Jhana's sukha is probably not the only pleasure to which one does not inevitably cling, since MN 148 opens its analysis to pleasure felt at each of the 6 sense faculties.

I think there's something to be said for Kearney's belief that one can tie pleasure with the 2nd Noble Truth. I would accept that pleasure is the outcome of craving. But, I would go further and say that the 3 kinds of kāyika vedanā (bodily feeling) are all the sequel to craving. Craving is the necessary condition for all types of bodily feeling, and I would say that such craving does not need to lie in the immediate past as the initiator of kamma in search of pleasure, just before the feeling is felt. It could be craving from even a past life.

Sorry for the rambling. I was not sure which point you wanted me to elaborate on.

:namaste:

pegembara
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by pegembara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:40 pm

Happiness is like a butterfly the more you chase it the more it will elude you but if you turn your attention to other things it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.

Thoureau
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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mikenz66
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:46 pm

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote: Sorry for the rambling. I was not sure which point you wanted me to elaborate on.
Thanks. Rambling is fine. It's all interesting stuff.

:anjali:
Mike

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Dmytro
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by Dmytro » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The thread title is a deliberate mis-quoting of the typical jhana descriptions:
That's an unfortunate mis-quoting. Pleasure of jhana is born of seclusion (viveka) from sensuality (kama).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/viveka.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's still a long way to non-clinging.
But is there pleasure that doesn't involve craving? Above I quoted the answer that that Buddha gave to Saccaka's question:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But perhaps there has never arisen in Master Gotama the sort of pleasant feeling that, having arisen, would invade the mind and remain. Perhaps there has never arisen in Master Gotama the sort of painful feeling that, having arisen, would invade the mind and remain."
The Buddha replies that:
"rapture & pleasure born from seclusion"
had this property:
"But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
Is this a property of jhanic pleasure or a property of the Buddha?

After seclusion from sensuality, one has yet to attain the non-attachment to the jhanic pleasure:

"And how is the mind said to be internally positioned? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality (kama), withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His consciousness follows the drift of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, is tied to... chained... fettered, & joined to the attraction of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. Or further, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. His consciousness follows the drift of the rapture & pleasure born of composure, is tied to... chained... fettered, & joined to the attraction of the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Or further, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' His consciousness follows the drift of the equanimity & pleasure, is tied to... chained... fettered, & joined to the attraction of the equanimity & pleasure. Or further, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. His consciousness follows the drift of the neither pleasure nor pain, is tied to... chained to... fettered, & joined to the attraction of the neither pleasure nor pain: The mind is said to be internally positioned.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Dmytro

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mikenz66
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:18 pm

Hi Dmytro,

Thanks for the useful points. I'll emphasise again that I'm trying to explore these ideas, not propose particular solutions. It appeared to me that there are stages of non-clinging (as jhana factors arise, well before jhana itself).

And I guess your observation here:
Dmytro wrote: After seclusion from sensuality, one has yet to attain the non-attachment to the jhanic pleasure...
means that non-attachment to jhanic pleasure would only be achieved by an arahant?

:anjali:
Mike

santa100
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Re: Pleasure born of non-clinging

Post by santa100 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:12 am

From MN 52 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.
Ven. Bodhi noted:
Dhammarāgena dhammanandiyā. MA: These two terms signify desire and attachment (chandar̄ga) with respect to serenity and insight. If one is able to discard all desire and attachment concerning serenity and insight, one becomes an arahant; if one cannot discard them, one becomes a non-returner and is reborn in the Pure Abodes.
So the key seems to be the Insight part after emerging from the jhana and penetrate the Three Marks of Existene. If succesful, arahantship; if there're still traces of desire and attachment to the good states, non-return, which's not too shabby... :smile:

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