The Debate Of King Milinda

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yawares
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The Debate : Concentration/Wisdom

Post by yawares » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:52 pm

Dear Members.

The Debate Of King Milinda
[Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala]


#14. “What, Nāgasena, is the characteristic mark of concentration (samādhi)?”

“Leading, O king, for all good qualities have concentration as their chief; they incline to it, lead up towards it.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“As the rafters of a house incline and lead up to the ridge-pole and the ridge-pole is the highest point of the roof. So too all good qualities incline and lead up to concentration. And this was said by the Blessed One:

“Monks, develop concentration, a monk who is
concentrated sees things as they really are.”19


[NOTE: 19. S. iii. 13, v. 414; cf. Asl.162.]

------------
#15. “What, Nāgasena, is the characteristic mark of wisdom?”

“Illuminating (obhāsana),20 O king. When wisdom springs up in the mind it dispels the darkness of ignorance, causes the radiance of vision to arise, makes the light of knowledge shine forth and makes the noble truths plain. Thus does the meditator perceive with the clearest wisdom, the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of all formations.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“It is like a lamp, O king, which in a dark room would illuminate it and make the objects there plainly visible.”

“These qualities that are so different, Nāgasena, do they bring about one and the same result?”

“They do, the destruction of the defilements of the mind, just as the various parts of an army such as elephants, cavalry, war chariots, and archers bring about one result — the conquest of the opposing army.”

“Well put Nāgasena, you are clever in reply.”

[NOTE: 20. As well as cutting off already given above.]

***********to be continued************
yawares :anjali:

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yawares
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'Mahasena Deva(the Bhikkhu)' Re-incarnation as Nagasena

Post by yawares » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:30 pm

Dear Members,
This super cold Texas Saturday, I proudly present the amazing past life of the great Thera Nagasena. :heart: :anjali:

*********
THEIR PREVIOUS HISTORY (PUBBA-YOGA).
[ From sacredtexts.com ]

:candle: 'Mahasena Deva(the Bhikkhu)' Re-incarnation as Nagasena :candle:

Now at that time there dwelt, in the mountain region of the Himâlayas, on the Guarded Slope, an innumerable company of Arahats (brethren who, while yet alive, had attained Nirvâna). And the venerable Assagutta, by means of his divine power of hearing, heard those words of king Milinda. And he convened an assembly of the Order on the summit of the Yugandhara mountain, and asked the brethren: 'Is there any member of the Order able to hold converse with Milinda the king, and resolve his doubts?'

Then were they all silent. And a second and a third time he put the same question to them, and still none of all the number spake. Then he said to the assembled Order: 'There is, reverend Sirs, in the heaven of the Thirty-three, and east of the Vegayanta palace, a mansion called Ketumatî, wherein dwells the god Mahâsena. He is able to hold converse with Milinda the king, and to resolve his doubts.' And the innumerable company of Arahats vanished from the summit of the Yugandhara mountain, and appeared in the heaven of the Thirty-three.

And Sakka, the king of the gods, beheld those brethren of the Order as they were coming from afar. And at the sight of them he went up to the venerable Assagutta, and bowed down before him, and stood reverently aside. And so standing he said to him: 'Great, reverend Sir, is the company of the brethren that has come. What is it that they want? I am at the service of the Order. What can I do for you?'

And the venerable Assagutta replied: 'There is, O king, in India, in the city of Sâgala, a king named Milinda. As a disputant he is hard to equal, harder still to overcome, he is the acknowledged superior of all the founders of the various schools of thought. He is in the habit of visiting the members of the Order and harassing them by questions of speculative import.'

Then said Sakka, the king of the gods, to him: 'That same king Milinda, venerable one, left this condition to be born as a man. And there dwells in the mansion Ketumatî a god, Mahâsena by name, who is able to hold converse with him and to resolve his doubts. That god we will beseech to suffer himself to be reborn into the world of men.'


So Sakka, the king of the gods, preceded by the Order, entered the Ketumatî mansion; and when he had embraced Mahâsena the god, he said to him: 'The Order of the brethren, Lord, makes this request of you-to be reborn into the world of men.'

'I have no desire, Sir, for the world of men, so overladen with action (Karma). Hard is life as a
man. It is here, Sir, in the world of the gods that, being reborn in ever higher and higher spheres, I hope to pass away!'

And a second and a third time did Sakka, the king of the gods, make the same request, and the reply was still the same. Then the venerable Assagutta addressed Mahâsena the god, and said: 'On passing in review, Lord, the worlds of gods and men, there is none but thee that we find able to succour the faith by refuting the heretical views of Milinda the king. The whole Order beseeches thee, Lord, saying: "Condescend, O worthy one, to be reborn among men, in order to lend to the religion of the Blessed One thy powerful aid."'

Then was Mahâsena the god overjoyed and delighted in heart at the thought that he would be able to help the faith by refuting the heresy of Milinda; and he gave them his word, and said: 'Very well then, venerable ones, I consent to be reborn in the world of men,'


Then the brethren, having thus accomplished the task they had taken in hand, vanished from the heaven of the Thirty-three, and reappeared on the Guarded Slope in the Himâlaya mountains. And the venerable Assagutta addressed the Order, and said: 'Is there, venerable ones, any brother belonging to this company of the Order, who has not appeared in the assembly?'

Thereupon a certain brother said there was, that Rohana had a week previously gone into the mountains, and become buried in meditation, and suggested that a messenger should be sent to him. And at that very moment the venerable Rohana aroused himself from his meditation, and was aware that the Order was expecting him. And vanishing from the mountain top, he appeared in the presence of the innumerable company of the brethren.

And the venerable Assagutta said to him: 'How now, venerable Rohana! When the religion of the Buddha is in danger of crumbling away, have you no eyes for the work of the Order?'

'It was through inadvertence, Sir,' said he.

'Then, venerable Rohana, atone for it.'

'What, Sir, should I do?'

'There is a Brahman village, venerable Rohana, called Kagangala, at the foot of the Himâlaya mountains, and there dwells there a Brahman called Sonuttara. He will have a son called Nâgasena. Go to that house for alms during seven years and ten months. After the lapse of that time thou shalt draw away the boy from a worldly life, and cause him to enter the Order. When he shall have abandoned the world, then shalt thou be free of the atonement for thy fault.'

'Let it be even as thou sayest,' said the venerable Rohana in assent.

Now Mahâsena the god passed away from the world of the gods, and was reborn in the womb of the wife of the Brahman Sonuttara. And at the moment of his conception three strange, wonderful things took place:--arms and weapons became all ablaze, the tender grain became ripe in a moment, and there was a great rain (in the time of drought). And the venerable Rohana went to that house for alms for seven years and ten months from the day of Mahâsena's re-incarnation, but never once did he receive so much as a spoonful of boiled rice, or a ladleful of sour gruel, or a greeting, or a stretching forth of the joined hands, or any sort of salutation. Nay rather it was insults and taunts that fell to his share: and there was no one who so much as said, Be so good, 'Sir, as to go on to the next house.'

But when all that period had gone by he one day happened to have those very words addressed to him. And on that day the Brahman, on his way back from his work in the fields, [9] saw the Elder as he met him on his return, and said: 'Well, hermit, have you been to our place

'Yes, Brahman, I have.'

'But did you get anything there?'

'Yes, Brahman, I did.'

And he was displeased at this, and went on home, and asked them: 'Did you give anything to that hermit?'

'We gave him nothing,' was the reply.

Thereupon the Brahman, the next day, seated himself right in the doorway, thinking to himself: 'To-day I'll put that hermit to shame for having told a lie.' And the moment that the Elder in due course came up to the house again, he said: 'Yesterday you said you had got something at my house, having all the while got nothing! Is lying allowed to you fellows?'

And the Elder replied: 'Brahman, for seven years and ten months no one even went so far as to suggest politely that I should pass on. Yesterday this courtesy was extended to me. It was to that that I referred.'

The Brahman thought to himself: 'If these men, at the mere experience of a little courtesy, acknowledge in a public place, and with thanks, that they have received an alms, what will they not do if they really receive a gift!' And he was much struck by this, and had an alms bestowed upon the Elder from the rice and curry prepared for his own use, and added furthermore: 'Every day you shall receive here food of the same kind.' And having watched the Elder as he visited the place from that day onwards, and noticed how subdued was his demeanour, he became more and more pleased with him, and invited him to take there regularly his midday meal. And the Elder gave, by silence, his consent; and daily from that time forth, when he had finished his meal, and was about to depart, he would pronounce some short passage or other from the words of the Buddha.

Now the Brahman's wife had, after her ten months, brought forth her son; and they called his name Nâgasena. He grew up in due course till he became seven years old, and his father said to the child: 'Do you want, dear Nâgasena, to study the learning traditional in this Brahmanical house of ours?'

'What is it called, father?' said he.

'The three Vedas are called learning (Sikkhâ), other kinds of knowledge are only arts, my dear.'

'Yes, I should like to learn them, father,' said the boy.

Then Sonuttara the Brahman gave to a Brahman teacher a thousand pieces as his teaching fee, and had a divan spread for him aside in an inner chamber, and said to him: 'Do thou, Brahman, teach this boy the sacred hymns by heart.'

So the teacher made the boy repeat the hymns, urging him to get them by heart. And young Nâgasena, after one repetition of them, had learnt the three Vedas by heart, could intone them correctly, had understood their meaning, could fix the right place of each particular verse 1, and had grasped the mysteries they contained 2. All at once there arose in him an intuitive insight into the Vedas, with a knowledge of their lexicography, of their prosody, of their grammar, and of the legends attaching to the characters in them. He became a philologist and grammarian, and skilled alike in casuistry and in the knowledge of the bodily marks that foreshadow the greatness of a man 3.

Then young Nâgasena said to his father: 'Is there anything more to be learned in this Brahmanical family of ours, or is this all?'

'There is no more, Nâgasena, my dear. This is all,' was the reply.

And young Nâgasena repeated his lesson to his teacher for the last time, and went out of the house, and in obedience to an impulse arising in his heart as the result of previous Karma, sought a place of solitude, where he gave himself up to meditation. And he reviewed what he had learnt throughout from beginning to end, and found no value in it anywhere at all. And he exclaimed in bitterness of soul: 'Empty forsooth are these Vedas, and as chaff. There is in them neither reality, nor worth, nor essential truth!'

That moment the venerable Rohana, seated at his hermitage at Vattaniya, felt in his mind what was passing in the heart of Nâgasena. And he robed himself, and taking his alms-bowl in his hand, he vanished from Vattaniya and appeared near the Brahman village Kagangala. And young Nâgasena, as he stood again in the doorway, saw him coming in the distance. At the sight of him he became happy and glad, and a sweet hope sprang up in his heart that from him he might learn the essential truth. And he went [11] to him, and said: 'Who art thou, Sir, that thou art thus bald-headed, and wearest yellow robes?'

'They call me a recluse, my child' (Pabbagita: literally, 'one who has abandoned;' that is, the worldly life).

'And why do they call thee "one who has abandoned?"'

'Because a recluse is one who has receded from
the world in order to make the stain of sinful things recede. It is for that reason, my child, that they call me a recluse.'

'Why, Sir, dost thou not wear hair as others do?'

'A recluse shaves off his hair and beard on the recognition of the sixteen impediments therein to the higher life. And what are those sixteen 1? The impediments of ornamenting it, and decking it out, of putting oil upon it, of shampooing it, of placing garlands round it, of using scents and unguents, and myrobalan seeds, and dyes, and ribbons, and combs, of calling in the barber, of unravelling curls, and of the possibility of vermin. When their hair falls off they are grieved and harassed; yea, they lament sometimes, and cry, and beat their breasts, or fall headlong in a swoon--and entangled by these and such impediments men may forget those parts of wisdom or learning which are delicate and subtle.'

'And why, Sir, are not thy garments, too, as those of other men?'

'Beautiful clothes, my boy, such as are worn by worldly men, are inseparable from the five cravings 2. But whatsoever dangers lurk in dress he who wears the yellow robes knows nothing of. It is for that reason that my dress is not as other men's.'

'Dost thou know, Lord, what is real knowledge?'

'Yes, lad, the real knowledge I know; and what is the best hymn (mantra) in the world, that too I know.'

'Couldst thou teach it, Lord, to me too?'

'Yes, I could.'

'Teach me, then.'

'Just now is not the right time for that; we, have come down to the village for alms.'

Then young Nâgasena took the alms-bowl the venerable Rohana was carrying, and led him into the house, and with his own hand supplied him with food, hard and soft, as much as he required. And when he saw that he had finished his meal, and withdrawn his hand from the bowl, he said to him: 'Now, Sir, will you teach me that hymn?'

'When thou hast become free from impediments, my lad, by taking upon thee, and with thy parents' consent, the hermit's dress I wear, then I can teach it thee.'

So young Nâgasena went to his father and mother, and said: 'This recluse says he knows the best hymn in the world, but that he cannot teach it to any one who has not entered the Order as his pupil. I should like to enter the Order and learn that hymn.'

And his parents gave their consent; for they wished him to learn the hymn, even at the cost of retiring from the world; and they thought that when he had learned it he would come back again.

Then the venerable Rohana took Nâgasena to the Vattaniya hermitage, to the Vigamba Vatthu, and having spent the night there, took him on to the Guarded Slope, and there, in the midst of the innumerable company of the Arahats, young Nâgasena was admitted, as a novice, into the Order.

26. And then, when he had been admitted to the Order, the venerable Nâgasena said to the venerable Rohana: 'I have adopted your dress; now teach me that hymn.'

Then the venerable Rohana thought thus to himself: 'In what ought I first to instruct him, in the Discourses (Suttanta) or in the deeper things of the faith (Abhidhamma)?' and inasmuch as he saw that Nâgasena was intelligent, and could master the Abhidhamma with ease, he gave him his first lesson in that.

And the venerable Nâgasena, after hearing it repeated but once, knew by heart the whole of the Abhidhamma--that is to say, the Dhamma Sangani, with its great divisions into good, bad, and indifferent qualities, and its subdivisions into couples and triplets--the Vibhanga, with its eighteen chapters, beginning with the book on the constituent elements of beings--the Dhâtu Kathâ, with its fourteen books, beginning with that on compensation and non-compensation--the Puggala. Paññatti, with its six divisions into discrimination of the various constituent elements, discrimination of the various senses and of the properties they apprehend, and so on--the Kathâ Vatthu, with its thousand sections, five hundred on as many points of our own views, and five hundred on as many points of our opponents' views--the Yamaka, with its ten divisions into complementary propositions as to origins, as to constituent elements, and so on--and the Patthâna, with its twenty-four chapters on the reason of causes, the reason of ideas, and the rest. And he said: 'That will do, Sir. You need not propound it again. That will suffice for my being able to rehearse it.'

Then Nâgasena went to the innumerable company of the Arahats, and said: 'I should like to propound the whole of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, without abridgement, arranging it under the three heads of good, bad, and indifferent qualities.' And they gave him leave. And in seven months the venerable Nâgasena recited the seven books of the Abhidhamma in full. And the earth thundered, the gods shouted their applause, the Brahma gods clapped their hands, and there came down a shower from heaven of sweet-scented sandal-wood dust, and of Mandârava flowers! And the innumerable company of the Arahats, then and there at the Guarded Slope, admitted the venerable Nâgasena, then twenty years of age, to full membership in the higher grade of the Order.

Now the next day after he had thus been admitted into full membership in the Order, the venerable Nâgasena robed himself at dawn, and taking his bowl, accompanied his teacher on his round for alms to the village below. And as he went this thought arose within him: 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!'

And the venerable Rohana became aware in his own mind of what was passing in the mind of Nâgasena, and he said to him: 'That is an unworthy reflection that thou art making, Nâgasena; it is not worthy of thee so to think.'

'How strange and wonderful,' thought Nâgasena, 'that my teacher should be able to tell in his own mind what I am thinking of! I must ask his pardon.' And he said: 'Forgive me, Sir; I will never make such a reflection again.'

'I cannot forgive you, Nâgasena, simply on that promise,' was the reply. 'But there is a city called Sâgala, where a king rules whose name is Milinda, and he harasses the brethren by putting puzzles to them of heretical tendency. You will have earned your pardon, Nâgasena, when you shall have gone there, and overcome that king in argument, and brought him to take delight in the truth.'


'Not only let king Milinda, holy one, but let all the kings of India come and propound questions to me, and I will break all those puzzles up and solve them, if only you will pardon me!' exclaimed Nâgasena. But when he found it was of no avail, he said: 'Where, Sir, do you advise me to spend the three months of the rains now coming on 1?'

'There is a brother named Assagutta dwelling at the Vattaniya hermitage. Go, Nâgasena, to him; and in my name bow down to his feet, and say: "My teacher, holy one, salutes you reverently, and asks whether you are in health and ease, in full vigour and comfort. He has sent me here to pass the three months of the rains under your charge." When he asks you your teacher's name, tell it him. But when he asks you his own name, say: "My teacher, Sir, knows your name."'

And Nâgasena bowed down before the venerable Rohana, and passing him on his right hand as he left him, took his bowl and robe, and went on from place to place till he came to the Vattaniya hermitage, begging for his food on the way. And on his arrival he saluted the venerable Assagutta, and said exactly what he had been told to say, [15] and to the last reply Assagutta said: 'Very well then, Nâgasena, put by your bowl and robe.' And the next day Nâgasena swept out the teacher's cell, and put the drinking water and tooth-cleansers ready for him to use. The Elder swept out the cell again, threw away the water and the tooth-cleansers, and fetched others, and said not a word of any kind. So it went on for seven days. On the seventh the Elder again asked him the same questions as before. And on Nâgasena again making the same replies, he gave him leave to pass the rainy season there.

Now a certain woman, a distinguished follower of the faith, had for thirty years and more administered to the wants of the venerable Assagutta. And at the end of that rainy season she came one day to him, and asked whether there was any other brother staying with him. And when she was told that there was one, named Nâgasena, she invited the Elder, and Nâgasena, with him, to take their midday meal the next day at her house. And the Elder signified, by silence, his consent. The next forenoon the Elder robed himself, and taking his bowl in his hand, went down, accompanied by Nâgasena as his attendant, to the dwelling-place of that disciple, and there they sat down on the seats prepared for them. And she gave to both of them food, hard and soft, as much as they required, waiting upon them with her own hands. When Assagutta had finished his meal, and the hand was withdrawn from the bowl, he said to Nâgasena: 'Do thou, Nâgasena, give the thanks to this distinguished lady.' And, so saying, he rose from his seat, and went away.

And the lady said to Nâgasena: 'I am old, friend Nâgasena. Let the thanksgiving be from the deeper things of the faith.'

And Nâgasena, in pronouncing the thanksgiving discourse 1, dwelt on the profounder side of the Abhidhamma, not on matters of mere ordinary morality, but on those relating to Arahatship 2. And as the lady sat there listening, there arose in her heart the Insight into the Truth 3, clear and stainless, which perceives that whatsoever has beginning, that has the inherent quality of passing away. And Nâgasena also, when he had concluded that thanksgiving discourse, felt the force of the truths he himself had preached, and he too arrived at insight 4--he too entered, as he sat there, upon the stream (that is to say, upon the first stage of the Excellent Way to Arahatship).

Then the venerable Assagutta, as he was sitting in his arbour, was aware that they both had attained to insight, and he exclaimed: 'Well done! well done, Nâgasena! by one arrow shot you have hit two noble quarries!' And at the same time thousands of the gods shouted their approval.


Now the venerable Nâgasena arose and returned to Assagutta, and saluting him, took a seat reverently apart. And Assagutta said to him: 'Do thou now go, Nâgasena, to Pâtaliputta. There, in the Asoka Park, dwells the venerable Dhamma-rakkhita. Under him you should learn the words of the Buddha.'

'How far is it, Sir, from here to Pâtaliputta.'

'A hundred leagues 1, Nâgasena.'

'Great, Sir, is the distance. It will be difficult to get food on the way. How shall I get there?'

'Only go straight on, Nâgasena. You shall get food on the way, rice from which the black grains have been picked out, with curries and gravies of various sorts.'

'Very well, Sir!' said Nâgasena, and bowing
down before his teacher, and passing him on the right side as he went, he took his bowl and his robe and departed for Pâtaliputta.

At that time a merchant of Pâtaliputta, was on his way back to that city with five hundred waggons. And when he saw the venerable Nâgasena coming in the distance, he stopped the waggons, and saluted Nâgasena, and asked him: 'Whither art thou going, father?'

'To Pâtaliputta, householder.'

'That is well, father. We too are going thither. It will be more convenient for thee to go with us.'

And the merchant, pleased with Nâgasena's manners, provided him with food, hard and soft, as much as he required, waiting upon him with his own hands. And when the meal was over, he took a low seat, and sat down reverently apart. So seated, he said to the venerable Nâgasena: 'What, father, is your name?'

'I am called Nâgasena, householder.'

'Dost thou know, father, what are the words of Buddha?'

'I know the Abhidhamma.'

'We are most fortunate, father; this is indeed an advantage. I am a student of the Abhidhamma, and so art thou. Repeat to me, father, some passages from it.'

Then the venerable Nâgasena preached to him from the Abhidhamma, and by degrees as he did so there arose in Nâgasena's heart the Insight into the Truth, clear and stainless, which perceives that whatsoever has in itself the necessity of beginning, that too has also the inherent quality of passing away.

And the Pâtaliputta merchant sent on his waggons in advance, and followed himself after them. And at a place where the road divided, not far from Pâtaliputta, he stopped, and said to Nâgasena: 'This is the turning to the Asoka Park. Now I have here a rare piece of woollen stuff, sixteen cubits by eight. [18] Do me the favour of accepting it.' And Nâgasena did so. And the merchant, pleased and glad, with joyful heart, and full of content and happiness, saluted the venerable Nâgasena, and keeping him on his right hand as he passed round him, went on his way.

But Nâgasena went on to the Asoka Park to Dhamma-rakkhita. And after saluting him, and telling him on what errand he had come, he learnt by heart, from the mouth of the venerable Dhamma-rakkhita, the whole of the three baskets 1 of the Buddha's word in three months, and after a single recital, so far as the letter (that is, knowing the words by heart) was concerned.. And in three months more he mastered the spirit (that is, the deeper meaning of the sense of the words).

But at the end of that time the venerable Dhamma-rakkhita
addressed him, and said: 'Nâgasena, as a herdsman tends the cows, but others enjoy their produce, so thou too carriest in thy head the whole three baskets of the Buddha's word, and still art not yet a partaker of the fruit of Samanaship.'

'Though that be so, holy one, say no more,' was the reply. And on that very day, at night, he attained to Arahatship and with it to the fourfold power of that Wisdom possessed by all Arahats (that is to say: the realisation of the sense, and the appreciation of the deep religious teaching contained in the word, the power of intuitive judgment, and the power of correct and ready exposition) 1. And at the moment of his penetrating the truth all the gods shouted their approval, and the earth thundered, and the Brahma gods clapped their hands, and there fell from heaven a shower of sweet-scented sandal dust and of Mandârava flowers.


Now at that time the innumerable company of the Arahats at the Guarded Slope in the Himâlaya mountains sent a message to him to come, for they were anxious to see him. And when he heard the message the venerable Nâgasena vanished from the Asoka Park and appeared before them. And they said: 'Nâgasena, that king Milinda is in the habit of harassing the brethren by knotty questions and by argumentations this way and that. Do thou, Nâgasena, go and master him.'

'Not only let king Milinda, holy ones, but let all the kings of India, come and propound questions to
me. I will break all those puzzles up and solve them. You may go fearlessly to Sâgala.'

Then all the Elders went to the city of Sâgala, lighting it up with their yellow robes like lamps, and bringing down upon it the breezes from the heights where the sages dwell.
***************** :anjali:
:heart: Love Buddha's dhamma,
yawares/sirikanya :heart:

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yawares
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The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by yawares » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:42 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]

#16. “He who is reborn, Nāgasena, is he the same person or another?”

“Neither the same nor another.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“In the case of a pot of milk that turns first to curds, then to butter, then to ghee; it would not be right to say that the ghee, butter and curds were the same as the milk but they have come from that so neither would it be right to say that they are something else.”

----------
#17. “Is the man who will not be reborn aware of the fact?”

“Yes, O king.”

“How does he know it?”

“By the cessation of all that is cause or condition of rebirth. As a farmer who does not plough or sow or reap would know that his granary is not getting filled up.”


------
#18. “Does he who will not be reborn feel any painful feeling?”

“He may feel physical pain, O king, but not mental pain.”

“If he feels painful feelings then why doesn’t he just die and attain the extinction of grasping, and put an end to suffering?”

:candle: :heart: “The Arahant has no fondness for or aversion to life. He does not shake down the unripe fruit but awaits the time of its maturity. For this was said by Venerable Sāriputta, the Buddha’s chief disciple:

“It is not death, nor life I cherish;
As the hireling his wage, so I bide my time.
It is not death nor life I long for,
Mindful and clearly comprehending, I bide my time.”
:candle: :heart:
--------to be continued---------- :anjali:
yawares

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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:18 pm

That's a great verse from Sariputta...

Unfortunately it's not in the collection here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I wondered if it appears in any other Suttas.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:11 pm

This is the Pali text from the Theragāthā.
2. Sāriputtattheragāthā wrote:1002.
“Nābhinandāmi maraṇaṃ, nābhinandāmi jīvitaṃ.
  Kālañca paṭikaṅkhāmi, nibbisaṃ bhatako yathā.

1003.
“Ubhayena midaṃ maraṇameva, nāmaraṇaṃ pacchā vā pure vā.
  Paṭipajjatha mā vinassatha, khaṇo vo mā upaccagā.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:24 pm

Thanks Bhante,

I gathered that, I was just grumbling (mildly) that Access to Insight didn't have all of Sariputta's verses in translation. It would be good to read it in context, but if there are no on-line sources I'll have to wait until I have access to a full version.

Many of the Theragatha verses appear in other suttas, and I was also wondering if this particular one did.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:36 pm

OK, I found a 1913 PTS Edition. It's interesting to read these archaic translations:
Not fain am I to die nor yet to live.
I shall lay down this mortal frame anon
With mind alert, with consciousness controlled. (1002)

With thought of death I dally not, nor yet
Delight in living. I await the hour
Like any hireling who hath done his task. (1003)
The verse also appears as 606 in the verses of Sankicca, a student of Sariputta.
http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/sankicca.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by yawares » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:17 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:This is the Pali text from the Theragāthā.

[quote="2. Sāriputtattheragāthā"]1002.
“Nābhinandāmi maraṇaṃ, nābhinandāmi jīvitaṃ.
Kālañca paṭikaṅkhāmi, nibbisaṃ bhatako yathā.

1003.
“Ubhayena midaṃ maraṇameva, nāmaraṇaṃ pacchā vā pure vā.
Paṭipajjatha mā vinassatha, khaṇo vo mā upaccagā.
[/quote] :anjali:

Dear Bhikkhu Pesala :bow:

Thank you so much for the answer, I'll never know how to find it by myself.

I posted the debate @ DSG and Sarah/members said that they loved to read it. :heart:

And @ sariputtadhamma , a member asked questions about householders/bhikkhus (Soul In The Breath?/Going Forth ), I couldn't answer so I searched yahoo for MILINDAPANHA BOOK and found the long.. long version with all details TO ANSWER MY MEMBER.....and he loved it...oh how I wish you were there!

With respect,
yawares :anjali:
Last edited by yawares on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Debate : Reborn/Not Reborn

Post by yawares » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:OK, I found a 1913 PTS Edition. It's interesting to read these archaic translations:

The verse also appears as 606 in the verses of Sankicca, a student of Sariputta.
http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/sankicca.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Dear Mike,

Thanks for the Sankicca story, I like it very much. :heart:
yawares :anjali:

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The Debate : Knowledge,Wisdom/Pleasant Feeling

Post by yawares » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]


#19. “In one, Nāgasena, in whom knowledge (ñāna) arises does wisdom (paññā) also arise?”

“Yes, O king.”

“Is knowledge the same as wisdom?”

“Yes, O king.”


“Then would he with his knowledge and wisdom be in ignorance about anything?”

“He would still be in ignorance about the things he had not yet learnt but regarding what had been accomplished by wisdom — that is the perception of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and soullessness — he would not be ignorant.”

“Then what would have happened to his delusions on those points?”

“From the moment when knowledge arises, delusion passes away. As when the light comes, darkness disappears.”

“But then what has become of his wisdom?”

:candle: “When wisdom has accomplished its task then it disappears; but his understanding of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and soullessness does not disappear.” :candle:

“Give me an illustration.”

“As a man who wants to write a letter at night would have a lamp lit and then write the letter. Then he would put out the lamp, but though the lamp had been put out the letter would remain.”

----------

#20. “Is a pleasant feeling wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral?”

“It may be any one of the three.”

“But surely, venerable sir, if wholesome conditions are not painful and painful ones are not wholesome, then there can be no wholesome condition that is at the same time painful.”

“What do you think, O king? If a man were to hold in one hand a hot iron ball and in the other a ball of ice, would they both hurt him?”

“Indeed they would.”


:heart: “Then your hypothesis must be wrong. If they are not both hot but the heat hurts, and they are not both cold but the cold hurts then the pain does not come from the heat or the cold.” :heart:

“I am not able to argue with you. Please explain the matter.”

Then the elder taught the king the Abhidhamma: “There are six pleasures connected with the world and six of renunciation; six worldly sorrows and six of renunciation; and six neutral feelings in each case, altogether thirty-six. Then there are thirty-six feelings in the past, present, and future so altogether there are one hundred and eight feelings.”

******to be continued********
yawares :anjali:

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The Debate :Mind,Matter/ Time

Post by yawares » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:32 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]


#21. “What is it, Nāgasena, that is reborn?”

“Mind and matter.”

“Is it this very mind and matter that is reborn?”

“No, it is not, but by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“It is like a fire that a man might kindle and, having warmed himself, he might leave it burning and go away. Then if that fire were to set light to another man’s field and the owner were to seize him and accuse him before the king, and he were to say, ‘Your majesty, I did not set this man’s field on fire. The fire that I left burning was different to that which burnt his field. I am not guilty.’ Would he deserve punishment?”

“Indeed, yes, because whatever he might say the latter fire resulted from the former one.”


“Just so, O king, by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”
------------
#22. “You were explaining just now about mind and matter. Therein what is mind and what is matter?”

“Whatever is gross is materiality, whatever is subtle and mind or mental-states is mentality.”

“Why are they not born separately?”

:heart: “These conditions are related like the yolk of an egg and its shell, they always arise together and thus they have been related through time immemorial.”
:heart:
------
#23. “Nāgasena, when you say, ‘Time immemorial,’ what does time mean? Is there any such thing?”

“Time means past, present, and future. There are some for whom time exists and some for whom it doesn’t. Where there are beings who will be reborn, for them time exists; where there are beings who will not be reborn, for them time does not exist.”

“Well put Nāgasena, you are clever in reply.”

******
Notes: Thag. 1002, 1003.
Wholesome deeds are not painful in result but we may find them hard to do because of our attachment and aversion. It is the defilements that cause us to suffer, not the good deeds. Unwholesome deeds are painful in result but we may enjoy doing them due to delusion. When the result comes we have to suffer.
Rhys Davids and Miss Horner, using the Sinhalese text, both read this sentence as: evametam dīghamaddhānam sambhāvitam, which Miss Horner translates, “Thus is produced this long (samsāric) time.” However, the Burmese text has: sandhāvitam, and so I have translated accordingly.

*********to be continued************
yawares :anjali:

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Re: The Debate :Mind,Matter/ Time

Post by tidathep » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:36 pm

Hi Yawares,

I really enjoy reading the debates that you posted. :thumbsup:

Tidathep

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Re: The Debate :Mind,Matter/ Time

Post by yawares » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:10 am

tidathep wrote:Hi Yawares,

I really enjoy reading the debates that you posted. :thumbsup:

Tidathep
Dear Tidathep,

Thank you very much 'new member' :hello:
yawares :smile:

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The Debate : Root/Sense/Beginning

Post by yawares » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:17 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]


#24. “What is the root, Nāgasena, of past, present, and future time?”

“Ignorance. By ignorance are conditioned formations; by formations, relinking consciousness; by consciousness, mind and matter; by mind and matter, the six sense bases; by the six sense bases, contact; by contact, feeling; by feeling, craving; by craving, attachment; by attachment, becoming; by becoming, birth; by birth are conditioned old age, death, grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair.”
---------
#25. “You say that the ultimate beginning of things is not apparent. Give me an illustration.”

“The Blessed One said, ‘By reason of the sense bases and the sense objects there arises contact; by reason of contact, feeling; by reason of feeling, craving; and by reason of craving, action (kamma). Then, from action, sense bases are once more produced.’ Now could there be any end to this series?”

“No.”

“Just so, O king, the ultimate beginning of things cannot be comprehended.”

------------
#26. “Is the ultimate beginning of everything unknown.”

“Partly so and partly not.”

“Then which so and which not?”

“Whatever condition preceded this birth, that is to us as if it had not been. In reference to that, the ultimate beginning is not known. However, that which has not been comes into existence, and as soon as it has arisen it disappears again. With reference to that the ultimate beginning can be known.”

-------to be continued------
yawares :anjali:

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The Debate : Formations/The One Who knows

Post by yawares » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]


#27. “Are there any formations that are produced?”

“Certainly, O king. Where there is an eye and also forms there is sight; where there is sight there is contact; where there is contact there is feeling; where there is feeling there is craving; where there is craving there is attachment; where there is attachment there is becoming; where there is becoming there is birth, old age, death, grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair. However, where the eye and forms are not, sight is not; contact is not, feeling is not, craving is not, attachment is not, becoming is not; and where there is no becoming there is no birth, old age, death, grief, pain, sorrow, or despair.”

------

#28. “Are there any formations that are not produced?”

“There are not, O king, for it is just by a process of becoming that they are produced.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“Was this house where you are sitting produced by a process of becoming?”

“There is nothing here that was not. This wood was in the forest and this clay was in the ground and it was through the effort of men and women that this house came to exist.”

“Just so, O king there are no formations that are not produced.”

----------------
#29. “Is there, Nāgasena, such a thing as ‘The one who knows’ (vedagū)?”2

“What is this thing?”

“The living principle within that sees, hears, tastes, smells, feels, and discerns things; just as we, sitting here, can look out of any window we wish to.”

“If, O king, the living principle within can see, hear, taste, smell, and feel things like you say, can it not also see forms through the ear and so on?”

“No, venerable sir.”

“Then, O king, the living principle within cannot make use of whichever sense it pleases as you suggested. It is, O king, by reason of the eye and forms that sight and those other conditions arise, namely; contact, feeling, perception, intention, one-pointedness, vitality and attention. Each arises simultaneously with its cause and herein ‘The one who knows’ cannot be found.”

------------to be continued------------
yawares :anjali:

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