Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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manas
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by manas »

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
How do you know when it's jhanna?
Hi Agmanellium,

fwiw, I agree with you. I once got this perception that if we have managed to banish the five hindrances from the mind, and we begin to feel peace / joy / non-worldly pleasure etc in the body-mind, that even if it lasts only for a short while, we might well have 'dipped' into first jhana, just that we did not remain for long. I got this idea that maybe jhana cultivation is like baking a cake. You practice and practice but the cake doesn't come up. Finally one day, you get it and you have a cake. But it is a bit mediocre; the taste is sweet but there are many imperfections, and so much more practice is needed, so you can refine it and get better and better at making the cake. Then one day, you are an expert cake-maker. I now see it more in that way. Maybe heaps of us have had brushes and encounters with the first jhana, but were too hung up by some of the things we have read to recognize it for what it was, we had too much expectation. I'm trying to let go of expectations nowadays because I think such preconceptions actually block us from experiencing it, should it materialize.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:

Much Maha Metta,
Zach
ignobleone
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone »

socoguy78 wrote:You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:
Can you provide any sutta reference which support one-pointed-concentration as being absorbed in single object meditation to the point where the person cannot hear sound in a jhana?
I have been researching this commonly accepted interpretation, which I suspect incorrect.
While it's true one may not hear sound while deeply absorbed, there's a problem with this. When one is absorbed, one cannot discern anything else other than the object of meditation. How can then one progress between jhana if he doesn't discern any other thing?
socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:
Can you provide any sutta reference which support one-pointed-concentration as being absorbed in single object meditation to the point where the person cannot hear sound in a jhana?
I have been researching this commonly accepted interpretation, which I suspect incorrect.
While it's true one may not hear sound while deeply absorbed, there's a problem with this. When one is absorbed, one cannot discern anything else other than the object of meditation. How can then one progress between jhana if he doesn't discern any other thing?
Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all? By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation? I'm trying to grasp where you are coming from with what you wrote. Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.

Much metta!
Zach
ignobleone
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone »

socoguy78 wrote:Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all?
This thread is questioning real jhana, but your question sounds you actually think you have a direct experience with it? It's just like Christians when they're being asked to prove their God, they'd answer like this: "because we cannot exist without God", which means they need to prove their own reason, which could be recursive.
By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation?
None of them. But I do read what others have to say, especially things that I never heard, then compare with what the suttas say.
Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.
Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.
socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

ignobleone,
I was assuming you don't have direct experience with jhanas because you are saying you are researching. One way is to sit down and meditate to answer your question and do your research. Eventually using one pointed meditation/concentration meditation you will enter a jhana and you will have your answer for your research! Because you are directly experiencing a jhana, you will will answer your own question. That is why I assumed you don't have direct experience with concentration/one pointed meditation jhanas. You will know by seeing. So sit down and practice meditation.
ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all?
This thread is questioning real jhana, but your question sounds you actually think you have a direct experience with it? It's just like Christians when they're being asked to prove their God, they'd answer like this: "because we cannot exist without God", which means they need to prove their own reason, which could be recursive.
By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation?
None of them. But I do read what others have to say, especially things that I never heard, then compare with what the suttas say.

Well the best way to answer your research questions again is to sit and meditate.
Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.
Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.
Here are some Suttas you can read... MN 1, MN 21, MN 38, MN 59, MN 111, MN 118, MN 148. MN means Majjhima Nikaya. Hopefully these will help you. MN 148 is a very profound sutta. Read it very carefully.
Much maha Metta,
Zach
ignobleone
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone »

socoguy78 wrote:ignobleone,
I was assuming you don't have direct experience with jhanas because you are saying you are researching. One way is to sit down and meditate to answer your question and do your research. Eventually using one pointed meditation/concentration meditation you will enter a jhana and you will have your answer for your research! Because you are directly experiencing a jhana, you will will answer your own question. That is why I assumed you don't have direct experience with concentration/one pointed meditation jhanas. You will know by seeing. So sit down and practice meditation.
No matter how many times I try, I guess you will never understand. This will be my last try:
Let's say you're suppose to see someone, personX. Since you never met him before, you won't know a person is personX even if the person stands in front of you face to face. If you have a correct photograph of him, you will know. But if you have an incorrect photograph (i.e. someone's else,) you will only end up picking wrong person. It's all about the clear basis for the correct photograph. I'm not trying to say that the photograph I chose is the most correct. But the basis to decide which one is correct.
The problem with your advice (in bold) is, are you sure you are providing me with the correct photograph of personX ?
If you still don't understand, I give up.
socoguy78 wrote:
ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts.

The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely.
Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.
Here are some Suttas you can read... MN 1, MN 21, MN 38, MN 59, MN 111, MN 118, MN 148. MN means Majjhima Nikaya. Hopefully these will help you. MN 148 is a very profound sutta. Read it very carefully.
Apparently you only refer to Majjhima Nikaya. Anyway, let's finish it by making it simpler. Let's pick one point of your claims(in bold above) : "you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities" or any other if you wish, and please help copy the passages from any of those MNs which support your claim, because I couldn't find passages which suggest it so.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by theY »

Majjhima Nikaya = Sariputta Thera School = Commentary.

It's like abhidhamma, patisambhidamagga, niddesa, jataka, and cariyapitaka.

Reference: Where somebody claim to call abhidhamma is commentary.

:anjali:
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
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socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

ignobleone,
If you want the right picture read MN 111 Anaruda(sp?) sutta, One by one as they occured... This is Sariputa(sp?)'s account of the Jhanas. It's a good road map. My advice is to find a teacher that has mastered the jhanas and he/she will tell you what jhana you are experiencing. Thats one job of the teacher besides guiding you and being a conduit of the Buddha's teaching. One word in that sutta I believe was translated wrong is concentration... I feel it should be collectedness. Your mind will just be collected, easily able to sit on your meditation object. I'm trying to think how to use it in an analogy so you will better understand collectedness but my head is tired because it's past my bedtime.

When I started practicing I had a lot of doubt and a lot of anylising, a lot of thinking about it. I think the doubt came from the anylising. But I seriously gave up all study and reading of material relating to buddhism to give me a fresh start because my mind was "tugged" down from all the previous readings and assumptions on what I knew. I did this for several years. I have come a long way in the years practicing and understand much more now and understand much more in the Suttas. One thing that helped me was practicing mindfulness all the time. When I was doing things and I noticed my mind came off my meditation oject of Metta, I reconised that I was no longer on my mediation object and thinking about what ever else... then I stopped and let the distracting thoughts/emotions/what ever it was go, just let it go in mid sentence, or mid thought. I stopped giving it any attention. I stopped fueling the fire (nibanna, hence means no fire), I stopped the craving to want to think about what ever or feel what ever emotional state I started getting into thinking about. I would relax any stress and tension I noticed that arose when my mind got distracted, I made sure I was smiling and in a good mood and I returned back to the meditation object while doing what ever I was doing having a nice clear calmed mind with space to think if something happened instead of reacting to somthing happening.

Your question about providing a sutta for my claim of carring a jhana into normal daily activities... I came to this fruition years ago when I realised that when I was in sitting meditation and I got up to do walking meditation that I carried the same mental state with me and from there I tried it with washing dishes, using the bathroom and so forth. One thing I like that the Buddha said was "Meditation is life and life is meditation". That quote never really struck me until I really knew what it ment. I can ask around about Suttas referencing your question about jhana and daily activities.

I have a question for you ignobleone... Do you do a lot of anylising? Do you do a lot of thinking? Do you ever just watch and see what happens with the curiosity of a childs mind? Remember we were all children once and we all had that type of mind so just remember for me, ok?

I can't stress this enough but when we sit in meditation we are watching the mind... We are seeing what is happening and as we sit in meditation we will naturaly go deeper and see more and as we do we have more fruition and eventually we will see with wisdom's eye. We are watching to see where suffering is coming from... We are seeing the 4 noble truths in meditation and we are seeing dependent origination a 12 link cognition chain of events that take place super fast, deep in meditation. This is why I just say go and practice meditation. You wont know until you see it for your self. If you are blind and I tell you all about the color blue... you will never really know what I mean because you have never directly experienced the color blue. Just like with meditation, we can read all about it and type all about it, debate all we want about meditation but we will never really know until we sit and practice meditation. When we do our questions will start to be answered. The Suttas are like a road map to help us get to a new destination. But we have to drive to the new destinations to get our answers, we will never really have our answers by reading the road maps. Just used road maps as an analogy to the Suttas. Sure the Suttas help us, they are like a raft that we use to cross the river to the other side and when we arrive we will have no use for the raft anymore.

Well it's bed time. Night night and Metta!
zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by pegembara »

This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by pegembara »

This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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mikenz66
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi pegembara,
pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"...
This is certainly an interesting passage. However, from suttas such as
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it seems that the "cessation of perception & feeling" state is much "deeper" than the four jhana levels described in the suttas.

:anjali:
Mike
socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
pegembara

Yes that is one text description of the Cessation of perception and feeling and that's what happens after the relm of neither perception nor non perception. I've never experienced that. Thats super super super deep in mediation.

Maha Metta!
Zach
pegembara
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by pegembara »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi pegembara,
pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"...
This is certainly an interesting passage. However, from suttas such as
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it seems that the "cessation of perception & feeling" state is much "deeper" than the four jhana levels described in the suttas.

:anjali:
Mike
That is the "9th" jhana - see Anupada sutta. This what Ajahn Brahm has to say-

Another way of viewing the Jhanas and the Four Immaterial Attainments is by placing them in the sequence of gradual cessation. The process that leads into the First Jhana is the cessation of the world of the five senses together with the body and all doing. The path from the First Jhana to the Fourth Jhana is the cessation of that part of the "mind that recognizes pleasure and displeasure. The road from the Fourth Jhana to the Fourth Immaterial Attainment is the cessation, almost, of the remaining activity or the mind called "knowing." And the last step is the cessation of the last vestige of knowing. Through Jhanas and the Immaterial Attainments, first one lets go of the body and the world of the five senses. Then one lets go of the doer. Then one lets go of pleasure and displeasure. The one lets go of space and consciousness. Then one lets go of all knowing. When °I1_ lets go of an object, the object disappears, ceases. If it remains, one hasn't let go. Through letting go of all knowing, knowing ceases. This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... Jhanas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

pegembara,

I've never viewed the complete cessation of perception and feeling as a Jhana. It's just the mind turning off then on again. There's nothing to percieve because perception is not happening. It's like someone turning the power off to a robot then on again. The robot wont know it was turned off until it gets turned back on again... with us I believe when this happens our mindfulness is sooo razor sharp and laser powerful that we see something wonderful! Wisdoms eye is opened when we see our mind working at the most fundamental level... a 12 link cognition chain of events called Dependent Origination. I believe this happens after we leave the state of cessaton of perception and feeling.
Much Metta!
zach

That is the "9th" jhana - see Anupada sutta. This what Ajahn Brahm has to say-

Another way of viewing the Jhanas and the Four Immaterial Attainments is by placing them in the sequence of gradual cessation. The process that leads into the First Jhana is the cessation of the world of the five senses together with the body and all doing. The path from the First Jhana to the Fourth Jhana is the cessation of that part of the "mind that recognizes pleasure and displeasure. The road from the Fourth Jhana to the Fourth Immaterial Attainment is the cessation, almost, of the remaining activity or the mind called "knowing." And the last step is the cessation of the last vestige of knowing. Through Jhanas and the Immaterial Attainments, first one lets go of the body and the world of the five senses. Then one lets go of the doer. Then one lets go of pleasure and displeasure. The one lets go of space and consciousness. Then one lets go of all knowing. When °I1_ lets go of an object, the object disappears, ceases. If it remains, one hasn't let go. Through letting go of all knowing, knowing ceases. This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... Jhanas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]
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