Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

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SarathW
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Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by SarathW »

To me, the intermediate stage of sainthood Sakadagami, seem to be very subjective. Does significant weakened mean 99.99% or more? I also can’t understand the logic of him returning to this world only once. However I think this is a very important mile stone for path to attain Nirvana.
Your input is much appreciated.

I have extracted the following from the Wekipedia.

In Buddhism, the Sakadagami (Pali; Sanskrit: Sakridāgāmi), "returning once"[1] or "once-returner," is a partially enlightened person, who has cut off the first three chains with which the ordinary mind is bound, and significantly weakened the fourth and fifth. Sakadagamiship is the second stage of the four stages of enlightenment.
The Sakadagami will be reborn into the human world once more. If, however, he attains the next stage of enlightenment (Anagamiship) in this life, he will not come back to the human world.
The three specific chains or fetters (Pali: saṃyojana) of which the Sakadagami is free are:
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
3. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
Thus, the Sakadagami is an intermediate stage between the Sotapanna, who still has comparatively strong sensuous desire and ill-will, and the Anagami, who is completely free from sensuous desire and ill-will.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

The Sakadagami still has some sensual desire; his chains to the world have been weakened but they are not yet broken. But because he is upright and astute in conduct, he will not go to the animal or hell realms. He returns to Earth as a human once, whereupon he makes the effort to finally purify himself of sensual desire.

As for "How weakened are his desires?" I would say they are weakened enough that one more life of practice will completely destroy them. That's all that matters.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

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daverupa
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by daverupa »

The sakadagami doesn't even lose any particular fetter(s) - it is indeed simply a "super-sotapanna" (a case of a sotapanna who only comes back once out their possible seven is a case of their having 'really' been a sakadagami).

So, it's an interesting term.

For me, their close association with Buddhist cosmology is something of a red flag; additionally, clearly delineated stages go a little against the grain as established by the gradual training, and the Buddha's talk of gradual improvement over time.

I tend to think that sotapanna does refer to right view, and marks the entry of ones raft into the river (per the raft simile). That the thing got inflated into a calculus is generally par for the course with Buddhist texts, it seems to me.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you Lonesome I see your point.
Thanks you Deverupa. Do you mean to say that the person who attain Sotapanna Phala is moving to Sakadagami Maga and so on?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
daverupa
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by daverupa »

SarathW wrote:Do you mean to say that the person who attain Sotapanna Phala is moving to Sakadagami Maga and so on?
I mean to say that, for me, parsing which stage and whether its magga or phala is to get lost in minutiae. One can note the fetters which are addressed and in which order, but for the sotapanna-sakadagami split there is no clear differentiation to tease out.

It seems utterly irrelevant to practice, as well - sotapanna means you're guaranteed a way out, so establish right view and leave the rest to itself.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:
To me, the intermediate stage of sainthood Sakadagami, seem to be very subjective. Does significant weakened mean 99.99% or more? I also can’t understand the logic of him returning to this world only once. However I think this is a very important mile stone for path to attain Nirvana. Your input is much appreciated.
I think once one's established a firm foothold in Stream-Entry, s/he'd naturally have a much better idea about the stage of Once-Return. Let's tackle it one step at a time... :smile:
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

daverupa wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:42 am The sakadagami doesn't even lose any particular fetter(s) - it is indeed simply a "super-sotapanna" (a case of a sotapanna who only comes back once out their possible seven is a case of their having 'really' been a sakadagami).
That's an interesting point of view. Indeed, people tend to see once-returners as lesser non-returners, but seeing as "super sotapannas" seems better.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings rhinoceroshorn,
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:17 am That's an interesting point of view. Indeed, people tend to see once-returners as lesser non-returners, but seeing as "super sotapannas" seems better.
Agreed. A sotapanna is not reborn in animal or hell realms, but can theoretically still be reborn in the human realm (although the suttas appear bereft of such examples, so I am not so sure).

Either way, the once-returner has attenuated those fetters sufficiently that their one remaining birth will certainly be in higher, heavenly realms... not in the realm of persons known as the human realm.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Here's a pretty thorough explanation: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vo ... e-path.pdf
Last edited by Dhamma Chameleon on Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

daverupa wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:33 am but for the sotapanna-sakadagami split there is no clear differentiation to tease out.
:goodpost:
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DooDoot
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:10 am Here's a pretty thorough explanation: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vo ... e-path.pdf
Very good Sir. I agree with the above explanations I quickly browsed.
For the Once-Returner the lower nature does not arise frequently as in the majority who follow the round of rebirths. It arises occasionally

Atthasalini a commentary by Buddhagosha
But the effectiveness of paying closest attention to the Truths perceived, is evident from the fact that covetousness and ill-will make themselves felt only occasionally and that they rise slowly

Herbert Guenther
I came to similar conclusions here & here.
Ever since reading Iti 98, I have doubted sakadāgāmī means "once returner" but, instead, sensed sakadāgāmī might mean "ocassional returner" or "infrequent returner"....
Also, in Sanskrit, the word 'sakid' ('sakrt') can mean 'sometimes' or 'occasionally': https://sanskritdictionary.org/sakrt
The above is somewhat vague but the below is absolutely clear thus leads to the conclusion "the world" referred to above is "the world" of greed, hatred & delusion that the once-returner returns to once again or once more:
I recall posting this video somewhere, of a song which uses the English term "once more" ("once again") to mean a return to the past (defilements), which can happen on various occasions.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:04 am
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:10 am Here's a pretty thorough explanation: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vo ... e-path.pdf
Very good Sir. I agree with the above explanations I quickly browsed. I came to similar conclusions
:thumbsup:

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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by confusedlayman »

Sakadami if he dies in today world, he will go to deva world and when he returns back to this world, he will mostly be born during next buddha time or slightly after that...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:27 am Sakadami if he dies in today world, he will go to deva world and when he returns back to this world, he will mostly be born during next buddha time or slightly after that...
Sounds like unsubstantiated speech. No evidence. More Microsoft Mind of Copy & Pasting. Not from realisation.

Sutta teach "the world" arise within six foot long body including mind & thought (AN 4.45). Also, SN 12.44.

Sutta says here-&-now jhana is a "world" of exclusively pleasant feeling (MN 79).

Pali appears to say once-returner returns to world of sensuality:
Iti 96 wrote:Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire and freed from the bond of being is an arahant, one in whom the taints are destroyed.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
MN 118 wrote:In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate and delusion, are once-returners. They come back to this world [of greed, hate and delusion] once more [once again], then make an end of suffering.

Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṃghe tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmino sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karissanti—
:alien:
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:17 am fyi I am a woman. But ok with being called sir, as long as it's knowingly ;)
:shock: :mrgreen: :thumbsup:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:35 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:27 am Sakadami if he dies in today world, he will go to deva world and when he returns back to this world, he will mostly be born during next buddha time or slightly after that...
Sounds like unsubstantiated speech. No evidence. More Microsoft Mind of Copy & Pasting. Not from realisation.

Sutta teach "the world" arise within six foot long body including mind & thought (AN 4.45). Also, SN 12.44.

Sutta says here-&-now jhana is a "world" of exclusively pleasant feeling (MN 79).

Pali appears to say once-returner returns to world of sensuality:
Iti 96 wrote:Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire and freed from the bond of being is an arahant, one in whom the taints are destroyed.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
MN 118 wrote:In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate and delusion, are once-returners. They come back to this world [of greed, hate and delusion] once more [once again], then make an end of suffering.

Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṃghe tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmino sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karissanti—
:alien:
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:17 am fyi I am a woman. But ok with being called sir, as long as it's knowingly ;)
:shock: :mrgreen: :thumbsup:
so r u saying sakadami if he enters jhana, he will come out of jhana only once and go back to nibbana forever?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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