Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

santa100 wrote:Say even if one hasn't made it to stream entry, as long as one possesses the four virtues as mentioned in SN 55.22 above, it's still safe enough to ensure a favorable rebirth..
What does "favourable" rebirth mean? If it means being reborn in the heavens that's not necessarily favourable if one doesn't continue their Dhamma practice. To me, the only favourable rebirth is one where one continues the path to its completion...anything else is not a favourable rebirth. Even if you're born into the most blissful realm...what's the point? It's just the same old, same old samsara. The only favourable rebirth is the one that leads to Unbinding....which implies stream entry.
santa100
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by santa100 »

Sure, just like the Buddha described it in that sutta:
"A disciple of the noble ones, when endowed with four qualities, leans toward Unbinding, slants toward Unbinding, inclines toward Unbinding"
So, regardless of whether he'll be reborn into a heavenly realm, or a human realm, as long as he posseses the four virtues, he will continue to have the chance to see and practice the Dhamma again. About stream entry, I've already given you the link to the Kosambiya sutta that lists the seven factors, which should be pretty good concrete metrics to verify whether one's made it to that stage or not..
Reductor
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Reductor »

Hey Digity,

About that turtle bit, consider the shear scope of samsara: so many lives extend into the past that no beginning can be found. That's an enormous number, in comparison to which ten human lives lived in sequence still seems fantastically small and fortuitous. Once those ten (or two, or five or however many) have yielded a change in cosmic alignment, so to speak, the way back is long and arduous indeed.

So, perhaps a person has lived a single life as a human being, but that doesn't mean they will be going some other plane in the next one. Although if they depart from normal human morals enough, they likely will cease to be human the next time around.

About being a stream winner. I'd ask first how long you've been a serious minded Buddhist. If it hasn't been too long, then your easy position with regard to Dhamma and doubt may be the result of beginner's momentum more than anything else. Just give it time, and see how the next decades of your practice turn out. ;) If doubt arises at some future date, look it square in the face then and don't get worked up about failing the criteria for 'sotapatta'.
Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

Reductor wrote:Hey Digity,

About that turtle bit, consider the shear scope of samsara: so many lives extend into the past that no beginning can be found. That's an enormous number, in comparison to which ten human lives lived in sequence still seems fantastically small and fortuitous. Once those ten (or two, or five or however many) have yielded a change in cosmic alignment, so to speak, the way back is long and arduous indeed.

So, perhaps a person has lived a single life as a human being, but that doesn't mean they will be going some other plane in the next one. Although if they depart from normal human morals enough, they likely will cease to be human the next time around.

About being a stream winner. I'd ask first how long you've been a serious minded Buddhist. If it hasn't been too long, then your easy position with regard to Dhamma and doubt may be the result of beginner's momentum more than anything else. Just give it time, and see how the next decades of your practice turn out. ;) If doubt arises at some future date, look it square in the face then and don't get worked up about failing the criteria for 'sotapatta'.
I've been studying Buddhism for eight years...so the teachings are nothing new to me. I've already been through the beginners ups and downs...I have a fairly good understanding of the teachings now. Although, I still diligently try to deepen my understanding. What I lack is development in my meditation, but I'm starting to improve in that area.

I don't see doubt arising...I've had all my doubts, but I've seen through them now and the conditions for those doubts no longer exists. I'm a highly skeptical person and question almost everything....so I didn't just 'believe' something without first examining it from all angles to find holes. I don't take these matters lightly and think the Dhamma needs to be thoroughly examined for it to be properly penetrated.
Reductor
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Reductor »

Digity wrote: I've been studying Buddhism for eight years...so the teachings are nothing new to me. I've already been through the beginners ups and downs...I have a fairly good understanding of the teachings now. Although, I still diligently try to deepen my understanding. What I lack is development in my meditation, but I'm starting to improve in that area.

I don't see doubt arising...I've had all my doubts, but I've seen through them now and the conditions for those doubts no longer exists. I'm a highly skeptical person and question almost everything....so I didn't just 'believe' something without first examining it from all angles to find holes. I don't take these matters lightly and think the Dhamma needs to be thoroughly examined for it to be properly penetrated.
Thanks for responding.

The dhamma does need to be properly examined, that is true. If you have done that, and continue to do that, there is little need to be anxious about your next life.

I'd point out that examining the teachings for holes is very different from a fundamental shift in your cognitive process. That is, a lack of doubt from not finding holes is different from seeing your mind with new and better eyes. The first admits that doubt may arise if holes are found, while the second is to fill the holes with a first hand account of how things are.
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote: In terms of the self-identity...I mean, I just don't believe in any eternal self. I actually think it's ridiculous that some people even believe in this idea, because there's ZERO evidence for it anywhere. There's far more evidence to suggest we are a composition of the five aggregates.
Hi Digity, what did you mean by saying don't believe in any eternal self? Did you mean that there is no self? And there is no you, no yourself, and that you don't exist?

Regards
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Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

Reductor wrote:Thanks for responding.

The dhamma does need to be properly examined, that is true. If you have done that, and continue to do that, there is little need to be anxious about your next life.

I'd point out that examining the teachings for holes is very different from a fundamental shift in your cognitive process. That is, a lack of doubt from not finding holes is different from seeing your mind with new and better eyes. The first admits that doubt may arise if holes are found, while the second is to fill the holes with a first hand account of how things are.
Examining for holes doesn't exclude the possibility of a fundamental shift in one's cognitive process. For instance, when I examined other teachings, like Christianity, I found tons of holes and reality told me those holes were real. In that way, I decided those weren't teachings worth following. In the same way, I looked for holes in the Dhamma. This required me to examine reality much closer and in the ways that the Dhamma described. In doing that, I didn't see holes in the teachings...what I would see in reality was reflected in the Dhamma. As this happens, ones cognitive process shifts and soon enough you see the Dhamma in everything...in all your daily activities.
Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote: In terms of the self-identity...I mean, I just don't believe in any eternal self. I actually think it's ridiculous that some people even believe in this idea, because there's ZERO evidence for it anywhere. There's far more evidence to suggest we are a composition of the five aggregates.
Hi Digity, what did you mean by saying don't believe in any eternal self? Did you mean that there is no self? And there is no you, no yourself, and that you don't exist?

Regards
"Self" is just an idea, a concept. If we take "self" as meaning some eternal non-changing entity inside of us I'd say there's absolutely no evidence that something like this exists. On the contrary, all there is evidence for in this world is change...nothing is eternal, except change! We are just this bundle of changing systems. The idea of the self serves a purpose. For instance, if you go to the doctor and say "my leg hurts" that's helpful for communicating a problem you're having. However, at the end of the day these are just conventions we have created and in reality there's really no leg that belongs to you.
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote:
whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote: In terms of the self-identity...I mean, I just don't believe in any eternal self. I actually think it's ridiculous that some people even believe in this idea, because there's ZERO evidence for it anywhere. There's far more evidence to suggest we are a composition of the five aggregates.
Hi Digity, what did you mean by saying don't believe in any eternal self? Did you mean that there is no self? And there is no you, no yourself, and that you don't exist?

Regards
"Self" is just an idea, a concept. If we take "self" as meaning some eternal non-changing entity inside of us I'd say there's absolutely no evidence that something like this exists. On the contrary, all there is evidence for in this world is change...nothing is eternal, except change! We are just this bundle of changing systems. The idea of the self serves a purpose. For instance, if you go to the doctor and say "my leg hurts" that's helpful for communicating a problem you're having. However, at the end of the day these are just conventions we have created and in reality there's really no leg that belongs to you.
Of course there isn't anything that not changing over time and the self has the use in convention purposes. But on the true meaning of self, if it is that simple there is no self, why didn't the Buddha just teach, there is no self?

Regards
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Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

I think because then people would have thought the Buddha was a nihilist and the Buddha saw no good coming from that, so he chose to be silent on the matter and let his disciples, through the practice, see that this idea of the "self" was illusive. Think about it...if the Buddha claimed "no self" even today people would be saying Buddhism is so nihilistic, which it's not. Even with the Buddha never making that claim, some people still think Buddhism is depressing, nihilistic.

At the end of the day, the Dhamma itself is just a tool for seeing the Truth...don't get too caught up in what it says. Just let it help you flow in the direction its pointing.
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote:I think because then people would have thought the Buddha was a nihilist and the Buddha saw no good coming from that, so he chose to be silent on the matter and let his disciples, through the practice, see that this idea of the "self" was illusive. Think about it...if the Buddha claimed "no self" even today people would be saying Buddhism is so nihilistic, which it's not. Even with the Buddha never making that claim, some people still think Buddhism is depressing, nihilistic.

At the end of the day, the Dhamma itself is just a tool for seeing the Truth...don't get too caught up in what it says. Just let it help you flow in the direction its pointing.
So, because there is nothing that non-changing, there is no Nirvana?
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Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote:I think because then people would have thought the Buddha was a nihilist and the Buddha saw no good coming from that, so he chose to be silent on the matter and let his disciples, through the practice, see that this idea of the "self" was illusive. Think about it...if the Buddha claimed "no self" even today people would be saying Buddhism is so nihilistic, which it's not. Even with the Buddha never making that claim, some people still think Buddhism is depressing, nihilistic.

At the end of the day, the Dhamma itself is just a tool for seeing the Truth...don't get too caught up in what it says. Just let it help you flow in the direction its pointing.
So, because there is nothing that non-changing, there is no Nirvana?
It seems like Nirvana is beyond concepts of change and non-change...the fact that you're even suggesting Nirvana is contingent on there being some non-changing entity to be found in the world seems to me to suggest you're trying to conceptualize Nirvana, which I think is the wrong approach altogether.

I personally don't like any discussions of this nature, because I think you just trip yourself up when you try to conceptually understand what Nibbana is. It's something to be seen and realized, but until that happens it's best not to try and image what it is in your head.
Yana
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Yana »

whynotme wrote: So, because there is nothing that non-changing, there is no Nirvana?
hi,

I know i am just conceptualizing and it's probably nothing compared to the real thing but to my understanding,forgive me if i am wrong, EVERYTHING INSIDE SAMSARA is ever changing. "Nibbanna is NOT Samsara". That's about all i can say.I mean i don't know much about Nibbanna but i am pretty sure it's not Samsara.Therefore,Not subject to (Impermanence,Unsatisfactoriness,No-Self) Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.Making it a permanent state.It's probably a whole lot more complicated than this simple explanation but this should give an outline.

to the OP,I also have been anxious about the human rebirth.I had a real good think about it's implications.Part of me is tempted not to take what i just read seriously but if it's that rare then..i should probably not waste more time then. I also have the same way of thinking that i'd rather be born human than in the Deva Realms..because i really feel this is the place to be if you want to practice the Dhamma..but to be honest i'd rather be born in the deva realm than say the hellish realms.So to minimize my chances i am performing a lot of merits just to make sure i mean i probably would end up there anyways but hopefully it will carry me through.I always tell myself at the end of the day i don't know what will happen but i'd like to look back at my life and realized i spent it well,regardless of where my kamma takes me.And it doesn't rally worry me anymore if it takes another aeon to be born human as long as i do my best in whatever position i find myself in.

I also have to add,The same thing happens to when i am filled with doubt and ask myself what if there is no such thing as everything the Buddha taught.Like rebirth and various realms that i have never seen.Then i still wouldn't have regretted it because i lived my life doing something productive so either way i still feel like i have made good use of life.I had to put that in in case you thought i was just going to do things out of blind faith.

Hopefully this will help :anjali:
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

whynotme wrote:So, because there is nothing that non-changing, there is no Nirvana?
Nibbana is not a place, it is an event. You can't think of Nibbana as a location either inside or outside Samsara.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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ground
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by ground »

Digity wrote:I have this sense of angst about my next life sometimes...
Perfect. Go straight to its source. :sage:
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