AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

It may be, Bhante, that some venerable one here thinks 'Could it be that this venerable one is intent upon renunciation on account of mere faith?' But it should not be seen in such a way. A bhikkhu with taints destroyed, who has lived the spiritual life and done his task, does see in himself anything further to be done or any [need to] increase what has been done. He is intent upon renunciation because he is devoid of lust through the destruction of lust; because he is devoid of hatred through the destruction of hatred; because he is devoid of delusion through the destruction of delusion.
  • BB: Mp glosses the "increase" phrase by "growth by repeated activity".

    This expression also occurs in SN 22.122 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    Bhikkhu Bodhi translation:
    • “Friend Koṭṭhita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done.[226] However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension.”

      [226] Natthi … arahato uttarikaraṇīyaṃ katassa vā paṭicayo. Spk does not comment on this, but Mp IV 165,3-5 (commenting on AN IV 355,24-25) explains: “There is nothing further to be done, because he has done the four tasks imposed by the Four Noble Truths (see SN 56:11 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html). And no repetition of what he has already done, for the developed path need not be developed again and the abandoned defilements need not be abandoned again.”
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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It may be that some venerable one here thinks: 'Could it be that this venerable one is intent upon solitude because he is hankering after gain, honor, and praise?' But it should not ...
It may be that some venerable one here thinks: 'Could it be that this venerable one is intent upon non-affliction because he has fallen back on the wrong grasp of behavior and observances as the essence?'

  • BB: This expression normally refers to the extreme austerities of those who believe them to be the core of spiritual cultivation.
    See AN 3.78
    Thanissaro Bhikkhus translation
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    seems unclear on this point.
    Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 3.78 reads:
    • Bhante, suppose one cultivates behaviour and observances, an [austere] lifestyle, and a spiritual life, setting them up as if they were the essence. If unwholesome qualities then increase and wholesome qualities decline, such behavior and observances [austere] lifestyle, and spiritual life, set up as the essence, are fruitless. But if unwholesome qualities decline and wholesome qualities increase, then such behavior and observances [austere] lifestyle, and spiritual life, set up as the essence, are fruitful.
But it should not ...

... he is intent upon the destruction of craving ... clinging ... non-confusion ...

  • Bhikkhu Bodhi comments that all Pali editions available to him abridge these final three. It seems that the "ulterior motives" have been lost here.
Mal
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

Post by Mal »

mikenz66 wrote: Then the Blessed One, as soon as he perceived with his awareness the train of thought in Ven. Sona's awareness — as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm — disappeared from Vulture Peak Mountain, appeared in the Cool Wood right in front of Ven. Sona, and sat down on a prepared seat.
Did this actually happen or is it an "effect" added by the storyteller to stress the Buddha's importance through adding a mythical/supernatural element? Did the historical Buddha have telepathic and telekinetic powers? If so, why can't modern monks read my thoughts or teleport?
mikenz66 wrote:
Ven. Sona, after bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Just now, as you were meditating in seclusion, didn't this train of thought appear to your awareness: 'Of the Blessed One's disciples who have aroused their persistence, I am one, but my mind is not released from the fermentations... What if I were to disavow the training, return to the lower life, enjoy wealth, & make merit?'"
Isn't this something that most practitioners will think frequently? So is the Buddha really mind reading or using subtle clues, that an expert pyschologist might see, to guess Sona's state of mind?
mikenz66 wrote: "In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune[2]the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."
Is this persistence in everyday activities, or persistence in meditation? I'm guessing the latter, if so, I don't get "attune the pitch of the five faculties" metaphor. How do you tune your hearing? Isn't hearing just a given, you can't make yourself not-tone-deaf!
mikenz66 wrote: So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence...
OK that metaphor makes sense to me.
mikenz66 wrote: "When a monk is an arahant ... he is dedicated to six things: renunciation, seclusion, non-afflictiveness, the ending of craving, the ending of clinging/sustenance, & non-deludedness.
So can an arahant teach? If renuciation is "dedicated" then shouldn't everything go except the minimum basics for life - food, water, minimal shelter. Besides being something else "beyond the basics", teaching is obviously not a secluded activity, it's afflictive (!), and surely there's a great danger of desiring, and clinging to, the success of your pupils.
mikenz66 wrote:The monk whose fermentations are ended, having fulfilled [the holy life], does not see in himself anything further to do, or anything further to add to what he has done. It is because of the ending of passion, because of his being free of passion, that he is dedicated to renunciation. It is because of the ending of aversion, because of his being free of aversion, that he is dedicated to renunciation. It is because of the ending of delusion, because of his being free of delusion, that he is dedicated to renunciation.
So he wouldn't see himself as having to teach, would have no passion to pass on the dhamma, and would be dedicated to renouncing his teaching activities?

This is like the monk in the film Black Narcissus - he sits on the mountain while the Catholic nuns and "action men" do their (good) works & suffer, lust & suffer, etc. He sits there, does nothing, he's beyond suffering... but he's also beyond teaching and helping the poverty stricken villagers.
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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Sam Vara wrote: Interesting that the persistence is talked about here not as an isolated faculty, but as one of the five faculties.
Where does it say that? How can it be one of the five faculties - aren't these the five sense faculties? [Update: Mike -thanks for alternative translations, now I see it's five SPIRITUAL faculties . Aren't these concentration, effort, faith, mindfulness and wisdom? Could persistence/energy be better translated as effort?]
Sam Vara wrote: Can we have too much mindfulness, which the Buddha described as "all-helpfull"?
Maybe we can be trying too hard, for us? So although it's "all-helpful", we just don't have the stamina?
Sam Vara wrote: How much is too much? How much is not enough? A vina player can match the pitch of his intrument to a known note, such as a tuning fork. But there is no such objective yardstick for the persisting meditator. Perhaps the idea is leaving it to the individual practitioner to experiment and find out whether a tune can actually be played on the instrument - or whether one can actually meditate in a way that one judges to be beneficial.
There are qualities of jhana - calm, joy, ecstasy, equanimity, spacuiousness, nimittas... Wouldn't those be as close to "objective" yardsticks as you can get? Of course, jhana is a state only available to advanced meditators, but these qualities are felt before jhana. Shouldn''t we doing whatever encourages the beginnings of these qualities?
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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Mal wrote: There are qualities of jhana - calm, joy, ecstasy, equanimity, spacuiousness, nimittas... Wouldn't those be as close to "objective" yardsticks as you can get? Of course, jhana is a state only available to advanced meditators, but these qualities are felt before jhana. Shouldn''t we doing whatever encourages the beginnings of these qualities?
Yes, but the way I see this sutta, and last week's sutta
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14239" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
one needs the right balance of energy and concentration to develop deep samadhi.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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Hi Mal,
Mal wrote:
AN 6.55 wrote: Then the Blessed One, as soon as he perceived with his awareness the train of thought in Ven. Sona's awareness — as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm — disappeared from Vulture Peak Mountain, appeared in the Cool Wood right in front of Ven. Sona, and sat down on a prepared seat.
Did this actually happen or is it an "effect" added by the storyteller to stress the Buddha's importance through adding a mythical/supernatural element? Did the historical Buddha have telepathic and telekinetic powers? If so, why can't modern monks read my thoughts or teleport?
AN 6.5 wrote:
Ven. Sona, after bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Just now, as you were meditating in seclusion, didn't this train of thought appear to your awareness: 'Of the Blessed One's disciples who have aroused their persistence, I am one, but my mind is not released from the fermentations... What if I were to disavow the training, return to the lower life, enjoy wealth, & make merit?'"
Isn't this something that most practitioners will think frequently? So is the Buddha really mind reading or using subtle clues, that an expert pyschologist might see, to guess Sona's state of mind?
Well, of course, these passages may or may not be added, and may or may not be meant to be taken literally. But perhaps they represent how the Buddha understood exactly what Sona needed, and how he appeared at just the right time.
Mal wrote:
AN 6.5 wrote: "In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune[2]the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."
Is this persistence in everyday activities, or persistence in meditation? I'm guessing the latter, if so, I don't get "attune the pitch of the five faculties" metaphor. How do you tune your hearing? Isn't hearing just a given, you can't make yourself not-tone-deaf!
I think you answered this question for yourself later, that the faculties are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom, not the senses.
Mal wrote:
AN 6.5 wrote: So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence...
OK that metaphor makes sense to me.
AN 6.5 wrote: "When a monk is an arahant ... he is dedicated to six things: renunciation, seclusion, non-afflictiveness, the ending of craving, the ending of clinging/sustenance, & non-deludedness.
So can an arahant teach? If renuciation is "dedicated" then shouldn't everything go except the minimum basics for life - food, water, minimal shelter. Besides being something else "beyond the basics", teaching is obviously not a secluded activity, it's afflictive (!), and surely there's a great danger of desiring, and clinging to, the success of your pupils.
mikenz66 wrote:The monk whose fermentations are ended, having fulfilled [the holy life], does not see in himself anything further to do, or anything further to add to what he has done. It is because of the ending of passion, because of his being free of passion, that he is dedicated to renunciation. It is because of the ending of aversion, because of his being free of aversion, that he is dedicated to renunciation. It is because of the ending of delusion, because of his being free of delusion, that he is dedicated to renunciation.
So he wouldn't see himself as having to teach, would have no passion to pass on the dhamma, and would be dedicated to renouncing his teaching activities?

This is like the monk in the film Black Narcissus - he sits on the mountain while the Catholic nuns and "action men" do their (good) works & suffer, lust & suffer, etc. He sits there, does nothing, he's beyond suffering... but he's also beyond teaching and helping the poverty stricken villagers.
I read it in a more positive way: There is nothing to add to the awakening. That is complete.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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Mal wrote:
Sam Vara wrote: How much is too much? How much is not enough? A vina player can match the pitch of his intrument to a known note, such as a tuning fork. But there is no such objective yardstick for the persisting meditator. Perhaps the idea is leaving it to the individual practitioner to experiment and find out whether a tune can actually be played on the instrument - or whether one can actually meditate in a way that one judges to be beneficial.
There are qualities of jhana - calm, joy, ecstasy, equanimity, spacuiousness, nimittas... Wouldn't those be as close to "objective" yardsticks as you can get? Of course, jhana is a state only available to advanced meditators, but these qualities are felt before jhana. Shouldn''t we doing whatever encourages the beginnings of these qualities?
They might be as close as we can get - I don't know. But they are certainly not objective, and the fact that most if not all of these mental qualities are subject to doubt and frequent debate on these pages means that there is an obvious pitfall in any individual trusting that they know what they are. (Note that some of them have "near enemies", and some are translations of two or more different Pali terms) Jhana, for example, is extraordinarily hard to pin down. Many people seem sure that they know what it is, but their accounts differ a lot. Descriptions of mental states - especially translated out of their original cultural context - are weak predictors of whether two or more people using the same terminology are talking about the same thing.

So yes, I think we should do whatever encourages the beginnings of these qualities, and I agree with Mike's point that
one needs the right balance of energy and concentration to develop deep samadhi.
Before the samadhi is actually developed however, and hence before we know by means of hindsight, the problem is knowing what to do with a particular mental quality. If one is not actually experiencing samadhi right now, it is not immediately obvious what one should do.
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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"Bhante, when a bhikkhu is thus perfectly liberated in mind, even if powerful forms cognizable by the eye come into range of the eye, they do not obsess his mind; his mind is not at all affected. It remains steady, attained to imperturbability, and he observes its vanishing. ... sounds ... odours ... tastes ... tactile objects ... phenomena cognizable by the mind ...

  • Mp: He sees the arising an vanishing of that mind.
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Re: AN 6.55: Sona Sutta

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"Suppose, Bhante, there were a stone mountain ...

  • A different simile is used in AN 9.25
    http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    6. Silàyåpasuta: A stone Column
    Friend, when the bhikkhu's mind is rightfully released thus, even a lot of forms cognizable by eye consciousness coming to the purview of the eye do not overwhelm the mind, they do not get mixed up with the mind. The mind stays unmoved seeing their fading.

    Friend, like a stone column of sixteen cubits, eight cubits of which is deeply rooted underneath and eight cubits stand above. Even if a great wind comes from the east, it does not shake or shiver. ... re ... from the west, ... re ... from the north, ... re ... from the south, it does not shake or shiver. What is the reason? Friend, because of the deep establishment of the stone column. In the same manner friend, when the bhikkhu's mind is rightfully released thus,even a lot of forms cognizable by eye consciousness coming to the purview of the eye do not overwhelm the mind, they do not get mixed up with the mind. The mind stays unmoved seeing their fading.
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