Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:10 am

ignobleone wrote: Anyway, I think there's nothing more left (which is substantial) about jhana to debate since it's already clear.
If it were clear to everyone that thread would not be so long... :thinking:

What does seem clear is that there is considerable disagreement about the interpretation of jhana. I don't see it as just a commetary vs. sutta distinction, since teachers claiming to follow "just the suttas" have a wide variety of interpretations (e.g. Vens. Brahm and Thanissaro...).
I think that Ven Brahm would agree with your:
ignobleone wrote: - You know it's jhana if there's thunder going on when you're meditating but you don't know there's thunder.
but so would a lot of "commentary based" teachers. On the other hand, many "sutta based" teachers (such as Ven Thanissaro) would disagree.
See, for example the discussion of "ambulance jhana" here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p107109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't have a strong opinion on these different interpretations. However, I note that there are different models, but that the reputable teachers who teach based on the different models all seem to be teaching good Dhamma.

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by theY » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:42 am

Could you access to in-sign, by samādhibhāvanāmaya-ñāṇa, jhānaṅgas and their foes by lakkhaṇādicatukkas ?

Lakkhaṇādicatukkas using to notice environmental elements of jhāna-citta-- cetasikas, hadayavatthurūpa, etc., is the best way to notice jhana, because jhana is citta, that kāyānupassanā in satipaṭṭhānasutta had taught to access to in-sign it by analysis their environmental elements.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:12 pm

mikenz66 wrote:If it were clear to everyone that thread would not be so long... :thinking:
The thread seems to be not that active anymore, that's why I think it's already clear.
Anyway, the thread has become so long because of any of these: hypocrisy, ignorance, ego.
What does seem clear is that there is considerable disagreement about the interpretation of jhana. I don't see it as just a commetary vs. sutta distinction, since teachers claiming to follow "just the suttas" have a wide variety of interpretations (e.g. Vens. Brahm and Thanissaro...).
I think that Ven Brahm would agree with your:
ignobleone wrote: - You know it's jhana if there's thunder going on when you're meditating but you don't know there's thunder.
Well since I prefer objectivity over subjectivity, I don't care who would agree with me. All I care is that I can find it in the sutta. Since it's clear from "just the suttas", I don't need sutta commentaries. If commentaries don't agree, that's their problem.
but so would a lot of "commentary based" teachers. On the other hand, many "sutta based" teachers (such as Ven Thanissaro) would disagree.
See, for example the discussion of "ambulance jhana" here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p107109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No wonder the debate thread has become that long. Many people are just like you, tend to not touch the subject matters, stating claim without providing any specific. Instead, you give me a homework, i.e. to read a link. I couldn't find what Thanissaro said there. What/why does Bhikkhu Thanissaro disagree? Care to provide some specifics/evidence, some passage for example?
Regarding "ambulance jhana" of Ajahn Brahm, I think I've read about it before. If I'm not mistaken, it's called so since the person in the story was taken to a hospital by ambulance because he stopped breathing. What's wrong with that? Kaya-sankhara ceases in the 4th jhana. Of course you may not find it in commentary, since commentary usually speaks about jhana only in terms of jhanic factors.

Btw, I'm afraid it's out of topic if this continues further here.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:47 pm

Hi ignobleone,

Sorry if I was not clear. I was referring to is that Ven Thanissaro's interpretation of Jhana is obviousy different from Ajahn Brham's, as you can see from essays such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
where he talks about insight during jhana, which Ajahn Brahm claims is not possible. (In that case Ajahn Brahm agrees with the interpretations of the Commentaries, which speak of emerging from Jhana to gain insight).

Furthermore, as I pointed out, if you read descriptions of Jhana in the Visuddhimagga http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you will find plenty about strong concentration, much like what Ajahn Brahm describes, as well as quotations of suttas similar to the one that you mentioned.
Visuddhimagga Chapter X wrote:19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:49 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi ignobleone,

Sorry if I was not clear. I was referring to is that Ven Thanissaro's interpretation of Jhana is obviousy different from Ajahn Brham's, as you can see from essays such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
where he talks about insight during jhana, which Ajahn Brahm claims is not possible. (In that case Ajahn Brahm agrees with the interpretations of the Commentaries, which speak of emerging from Jhana to gain insight).
Hi mikenz, first of all I want to say I don't mean to defend any one of them.
Ven. Thanissaro:
1. Just because he has translated a lot of suttas, it doesn't always mean that he has the same understanding with the suttas. There's another parameter, i.e. you need to investigate his teacher, Ajahn Fuang. Ajahn Fuang's Teacher is Ajahn Lee, which we know he died at relatively young age. Possibly his teacher didn't teach him long enough. Thus I can suspect Ajahn Fuang has been influenced by commentary since his teacher died.
2. Using only the link is not enough to judge his overall view, even though the link doesn't say anything about cessation of any perception and the way he uses the word concentration together could be enough to suspect he has influenced by commentary. Other link to his article which describes jhana in numbers may help.
Ajahn Brahm:
1. In his article titled The Jhanas (with beautiful breath), he says that bliss of the first jhana is fueled by the complete absence of all five-sense activities, which means cessation of sensuality, consistent with the suttas.
2. Where can I find his claim that insight during jhana is not possible? Care to provide a link?
Regardless of his claim, there should be insight/discernment during jhana, otherwise how can one know/discern the five-sense activities have ceased or not? This is what many people don't notice. They don't have idea what insight is.
Furthermore, as I pointed out, if you read descriptions of Jhana in the Visuddhimagga http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you will find plenty about strong concentration, much like what Ajahn Brahm describes, as well as quotations of suttas similar to the one that you mentioned.
Visuddhimagga Chapter X wrote:19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
I don't really get what "strong concentration" means. If I'm not mistaken, it means being totally absorbed in an object of choice. If that's the case, it's commentary interpretation. You need to differentiate it with strong exertion to direct one's mind to do something, which is I think a more general interpretation.
Regarding the passage from Visuddhimagga, let me repeat that I never said all commentaries for all topics are misleading. I used some instead of all. That means, not all commentaries are inconsistent.

And now how about you, anything from your own understanding you can share the OP besides pointing links?

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi ignobleone,

Sorry, I have read and listened to quite a lot of Ven Thanissaro, and his version of Jhana certainly seemed to be in the "softer" category, but I don't have any very good references. I thought he discussed this in his Wings to Awakening book, but I'm afraid I can't find the passage I was thinking of.

For Ajahn Brahm see his book "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond". There are various things on the internet discussing this, such as:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_ins ... ssage/2722" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I provided particular quote to the Visuddhimagga, in reply to your
"A couple of clues you cannot find in commentaries", the point being that I can.
To which you reply:
Regarding the passage from Visuddhimagga, let me repeat that I never said all commentaries for all topics are misleading. I used some instead of all. That means, not all commentaries are inconsistent.
Which is fine, but why the dismissive tone then?

I certainly don't think that all commentaries (or all teachers, or all posters on the internet...) are infallible either. And it it useful to have inconsistencies (real or apparent) pointed out. So if you have some specific comments regarding inconsistencies between Suttas and Commentaries to discuss, that would be interesting.

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 am

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, I have read and listened to quite a lot of Ven Thanissaro, and his version of Jhana certainly seemed to be in the "softer" category, but I don't have any very good references. I thought he discussed this in his Wings to Awakening book, but I'm afraid I can't find the passage I was thinking of.
Hi mikenz, what does "softer" category mean?
I provided particular quote to the Visuddhimagga, in reply to your
"A couple of clues you cannot find in commentaries", the point being that I can.
To which you reply:
Regarding the passage from Visuddhimagga, let me repeat that I never said all commentaries for all topics are misleading. I used some instead of all. That means, not all commentaries are inconsistent.
Which is fine, but why the dismissive tone then?
Oh I see what you want to say with the Visuddhimagga passage. But hold on, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Here I include the passage again:
Visuddhimagga Chapter X wrote:
19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their t state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).

Maybe you think I don't have Visuddhimagga. I do have a complete one in PDF. After a closer reading including some paragraphs above the passage, you will find:
1. The passage talks about the immaterial attainment (infinite space)
2. Thus Alara Kalama didn't hear the sound of the five hundred carts while he was in the immaterial attainment, not the 1st jhana
3. A closer look at: "that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána" in the context of the whole paragraph, concludes that in the 1st jhana one still can perceive sound, only in the immaterial attainment one cannot (see #2 above). This is misleading.

So, how do you think? I think you fail to point out that I was wrong.
I'd suggest you to read things carefully, read the whole scope, don't read partially.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:26 am

Hi Ignobleone,

By "softer" I mean states where one is aware of sensory input. As opposed to the model where one is isolated from sensory input.
ignobleone wrote: 3. A closer look at: "that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána" in the context of the whole paragraph, concludes that in the 1st jhana one still can perceive sound, only in the immaterial attainment one cannot (see #2 above). This is misleading.
Sorry, it was just the first example I could come up with of the Commentaries referring to passages similar to the one you quoted. In fact, the interpretation that it is an immaterial attainment is the commentary. It's not clear from the passage itself (which I think is the passage that you were originally referring to):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
37. "Now what do you think, Pukkusa? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with — that a man, while conscious and awake, should not see a great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed him by one after another, nor hear the noise, or that one conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, should neither see it nor hear the noise?"

Can you provide the sutta reference that states that one cannot hear sound in first Jhana?

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:30 am

mikenz66 wrote: Sorry, it was just the first example I could come up with of the Commentaries referring to passages similar to the one you quoted. In fact, the interpretation that it is an immaterial attainment is the commentary. It's not clear from the passage itself (which I think is the passage that you were originally referring to):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
37. "Now what do you think, Pukkusa? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with — that a man, while conscious and awake, should not see a great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed him by one after another, nor hear the noise, or that one conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, should neither see it nor hear the noise?"
Yes, Buddhaghosa is likely to have interpreted the passage. We don't know why he translated it as immaterial attainment since the passage doesn't say it. This is an example why I don't trust commentary like Visuddhimagga. Also notice that Buddhaghosa came from Hinduism/Vedic background.
Can you provide the sutta reference that states that one cannot hear sound in first Jhana?
To be more precise, I think it's more appropriate to say: "cannot perceive sound".
There's no single sutta which says exactly like that. But the claim is supported by at least three sutta references I could find:
1. DN 9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html look for this passage:
"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases."
2. AN 9.31 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html says:
"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped."
3. AN 10.72 - Kantaka Sutta (kantaka=thorn). There's no translation of this sutta at accesstoinsight.org, only the pali version available. But you can find one at Leigh Brasington website http://www.leighb.com/an10_72.htm which I think is not quite correct translation.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:59 am

Hi Ignobleone,

Thanks for gathering those together. Those passages still depend somewhat on the interpretation. And interpretations differ:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p197704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ñāṇa wrote: As for hearing, this is only mentioned as such in the Kathāvatthu, and pertains to the placement of attention, not the non-fucntioning of the ear faculty. There are suttas and commentaries which suggest limiting the latter to the formless attainments.]
http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... he-jhanas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For many, this is a big issue. Some take the position to say, that it cannot be a jhana if the meditator experiences “any” (other) sense impression, than the meditation topic.

Others say, wait a moment, i can clearly experience the 4 jhanas and even distinguish the individual factors which make up each jhana. But i do hear sounds and experience thoughts, albeit in a “background” not bothering my concentration at all.

Between those two “views” sometimes debates take place, where for the most part, group number one cites the Visuddhimagga whereas group number two has such prominent teachers like Ayya Khema and many many students as witnesses of their experience.

Now lets try to solve this mystery.
...
:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Ignobleone,

Thanks for gathering those together. Those passages still depend somewhat on the interpretation. And interpretations differ:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p197704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ñāṇa wrote: As for hearing, this is only mentioned as such in the Kathāvatthu, and pertains to the placement of attention, not the non-fucntioning of the ear faculty. There are suttas and commentaries which suggest limiting the latter to the formless attainments.]
http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... he-jhanas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.
This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:12 am

Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote: Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.
I'm not sure what ending you are after.

Personally, I have no problem with different people interpreting those suttas a little differently. I don't think the Dhamma is so fragile that it depends on one very specific interpretation to be effective. In my view we have to investigate it ourselves, based on advice from teachers who seem to be trustworthy according to the Buddha's measuring sticks...
ignobleone wrote: This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.
Not for 20 years or so. Some basic Christianity was a child. A little transcendental meditation when I was a student.

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by theY » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:44 am

^

We can't hear anything at upacāra of first jhāna, and go on.

1) Pañcadvārāvajjana is very sensitive with bhavaṅga, because bhavaṅga can be Pañcadvārāvajjana's ārammaṇa-anantara-nissaya-ūpanissaya-purejāta-natthi-viggatapaccayas--let-able Pañcadvārāvajjana arise after it without separate, so Pañcadvārāvajjana can arise in khanikasamādhi.

But pañcadvārāvajjana can't arise after jhānacitta without seperate, many types of citta must arise after jhānacitta and before it because jhānacitta can be only upanissaya-natthi-viggatapaccaya. It's so far from 5 kāmagunas.

Upacāra of anyjhāna still sensitive more than appanājhāna. It must drop to bhavaṅga every 7 arisings, so it identify about lower power of it that can't win bhavaṅga. However it narrowly win akusala, and its concentrating nimitta more power than khanika, so 5 kāmagunas can't access upacārasamādhi while it go on, too.

2) 5 vatthus are kammajarūpa and indriyapaccaya, so observing them from kamma's vipāka are harder than hatayavatthu of jhānacitta that's only kammajarūpa but it isn't intriyapaccaya.

3) Citta can arise only one per time. So if jhāna is "strong exertion to direct one's mind to do something" or "ekaggatā", it couldn't sense anything by 5 senses because they are out of onemind and out of one thing.

This commentary passage is refer to senseless by 5 senses, except 6th sense, of samatha-developer.

[qoute]
Somanassañhi catutthajjhānassa upacārakkhaṇeyeva pahīyati, dukkhadomanassasukhāni paṭhamadutiyatatiyajjhānānaṃ upacārakkhaṇesu.
[/qoute]

Translated:

Mind-sukkha begins to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 4th jhāna. Physical-dukkha, mind-dukkha, and physical-sukkha begin to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd jhāna.

Just a conclusion, see at link for more information:
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0515a.att2.xml#M0.012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Sleeper, and dis-attended body don't hear the sound, too. So hearing isn't importance to decide jhāna. Tipitaka and ommentary emphasize to know about mind elements more than it. Sound hearing just be suppāya that we should prepare to deny before meditate.

Attend lakkhaṇādicatukkas to understand mind state more to develop it.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:13 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote: Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.
I'm not sure what ending you are after.
I just wonder when you'll stop supplying me with links :)
I have shown you (which I believe) the most credible references. You don't accept it nor come up with your own counter argument, instead you keep showing me some links. I don't understand what you want. Or is this how you learn the Dhamma, by reading and comparing others' view? Then we have a very different way of learning the Teaching. I hope you can eventually find the most acceptable view.
Personally, I have no problem with different people interpreting those suttas a little differently. I don't think the Dhamma is so fragile that it depends on one very specific interpretation to be effective. In my view we have to investigate it ourselves, based on advice from teachers who seem to be trustworthy according to the Buddha's measuring sticks...
Some people in this forum, including you, keep saying that people interpret differently, without any clue which interpretation is right. No one solves the problem. It's not about to be effective, but to be correct, otherwise you will never arrive at the certainty of the Teaching. You need to notice different kinds of interpretation:
1. Interpretation = translation + additional judgment/opinion (possibly without evidence, could also contain misunderstanding)
Example: interpretation of the passage you provided earlier about Alara Kalama didn't hear sound, it's not clear why Buddhaghosa interpreted it as immaterial attainment.
2. Interpretation = merely translation + putting together supporting evidence
Example: feel free to give any example, this should be what we're looking for.

Regarding the latest links you gave me, someone mentioned Kathavatthu in one of the links. Kathavatthu is a part of Abhidhamma, and Abhidhamma is all commentary. Based on my experience with commentary, I repeat, I don't trust commentary. I think there's no point to argue with people who base their view on commentary, because at some point they will be demanded to provide sutta reference. If the sutta reference cannot be found, but the opposite reference can be found and clear, they will lose.
I dare to bet people who base their view only on commentary cannot answer either one or both of these questions:
1. Is there any relation between jhana and Nibbana?
2. If yes, how they relate?
ignobleone wrote: This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.
Not for 20 years or so. Some basic Christianity was a child. A little transcendental meditation when I was a student.
The reason I asked about your spiritual background is because there's a very crucial aspect/quality in learning the Teaching, that many people, mostly (not all) westerners (Americans, Europeans) or people who are born in the regions with dominant Theistic belief system, they don't even consider or aware of it. This quality is called saddha(confidence/conviction/trust/faith.) The Buddha always mentions it first when he talks about five qualities: conviction, persistence(viriya), mindfulness(sati), concentration(samadhi), discernment(panna/vipassana). Maybe you're ready with persistence, mindfulness, concentration and discernment. But how about conviction? Without solid conviction, whatever you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how others try to help you, you won't understand the Teaching, let alone attain the Gnosis. That's what I wanted to say, just FYI.

Let me try to illustrate the importance of conviction for you.
Suppose you drink a type of tea regularly. One day you find a different type of tea you want to try. If you drink the new tea using an empty cup, you will know the distinct taste the new tea has to offer. But if you drink the new tea using a cup half-filled with your regular tea, most likely you won't know exactly what distinct taste the new tea has to offer. In the same way, make sure you don't learn Buddhism with other belief system still sticks in you. Other belief system will interfere, influence your judgement. And believe it or not, from karmic perspective, there will be considerable chance you won't be able to understand the Teaching (especially difficult topics) in this very lifetime (but don't worry, things can change.)

Btw, you mention Transcendental Meditation. That means you might have some exposure to Vedic teaching. Many westerners don't know the main difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Some even tend to think Hinduism is better than Buddhism since Hinduism came first.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:57 am

Hello again...
ignobleone wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote: Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.
I'm not sure what ending you are after.
I just wonder when you'll stop supplying me with links :)
I have shown you (which I believe) the most credible references. You don't accept it nor come up with your own counter argument, instead you keep showing me some links.
Sorry, the links are not really necessary, are they? The counter argument is simply that the meaning of passages such as "the perception of sensuality has been stopped" are a matter of interpretation.
ignobleone wrote: Some people in this forum, including you, keep saying that people interpret differently, without any clue which interpretation is right. No one solves the problem. It's not about to be effective, but to be correct, otherwise you will never arrive at the certainty of the Teaching.
Of course. But I have no reason to believe the interpretation some particular person who posts on this forum. It's something I have to take responsibility for myself.
ignobleone wrote: Btw, you mention Transcendental Meditation. That means you might have some exposure to Vedic teaching. Many westerners don't know the main difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Some even tend to think Hinduism is better than Buddhism since Hinduism came first.
Well this was a long time ago, so I really have no recollection of Vedic teachings.
ignobleone wrote: Let me try to illustrate the importance of conviction for you.
Thank you for your thoughts. Actually, I personally came to Buddhism mostly through conviction. I turned up at my local Thai Wat, observed the monks and lay people, liked it, and stuck around. I spent several months just doing chanting, giving dana, and so on before I even tried any meditation practice (we didn't have an English-speaking monk to teach at that particular time). So (apparently unlike some members) I did not come to Dhamma via some intellectual process. I see it as something to be experienced, not something to be proved by textual analysis.


:anjali:
Mike

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