Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Cittasanto »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:So what I said still stands, it is an issue of the one who is owed the money and the law, not another money lender.
The government issues the UK student 'loan' (via the SLC, a third party organisation acting on the government's behalf - privatisation is the norm now) and does not expect it back, not chase for the money, so by what you say, a UK student loan would not inhibit ordination.
All the better then!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

(Just look at how attached to the view 'a UK student loan is not a debt' I am! Regardless of whether it'd inhibit ordination or not, I'm a long way off being ready anyway!)
Mal
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

Mawkish1983 wrote:(Just look at how attached to the view 'a UK student loan is not a debt' I am! Regardless of whether it'd inhibit ordination or not, I'm a long way off being ready anyway!)
You cannot be attached to Right View.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Cittasanto »

Mal wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:(Just look at how attached to the view 'a UK student loan is not a debt' I am! Regardless of whether it'd inhibit ordination or not, I'm a long way off being ready anyway!)
You cannot be attached to Right View.
you can be attached to views, and that attachment makes it dissident and not upright. you can hold anything in the wrong way.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Plus, I don't think 'right view' as a doctrinal term includes opinions like those discussed here; I think it refers to the dhamma seals
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Cittasanto »

Mawkish1983 wrote:Plus, I don't think 'right view' as a doctrinal term includes opinions like those discussed here; I think it refers to the dhamma seals
it would just be a view that is factually correct, (which is a simple way of saying what I said earlier as I said it :P)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Mal
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

Mawkish1983 wrote:Plus, I don't think 'right view' as a doctrinal term includes opinions like those discussed here; I think it refers to the dhamma seals
You are right, of course.

Apologies, should have added a smiley, or better, not have attempted to be ironic.
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Mal wrote:Apologies, should have added a smiley, or better, not have attempted to be ironic.
No need to apologise, I rarely realise if someone is being ironic or sarcastic despite my ability to be sarcastic or ironic myself. I understand the joke now.
ricebowl
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:26 pm

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by ricebowl »

marcpiano wrote:Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
Here in Singapore we have a system adapted from the British. I have student loans outstanding, and in my case borrowed from my parents via the government's financial institution as a proxy, as far as I am concerned that is a debt. Within the Accesstoinsight suttas that I came across, I recall there was one regarding Debtlessness, as it is a rather short sutta I thought I will just paste the entire text here instead
Anana Sutta: Debtless
Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "There are these four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality. Which four? The bliss of having, the bliss of [making use of] wealth, the bliss of debtlessness, the bliss of blamelessness.

"And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.

"And what is the bliss of [making use of] wealth? There is the case where the son of a good family, using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, partakes of his wealth and makes merit. When he thinks, 'Using the wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, I partake of wealth and make merit,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of [making use of] wealth.

"And what is the bliss of debtlessness? There is the case where the son of a good family owes no debt, great or small, to anyone at all. When he thinks, 'I owe no debt, great or small, to anyone at all,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of debtlessness.

"And what is the bliss of blamelessness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma. When he thinks, 'I am endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of blamelessness.

"These are the four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality."

Knowing the bliss of debtlessness,
& recollecting the bliss of having,
enjoying the bliss of wealth, the mortal
then sees clearly with discernment.
Seeing clearly — the wise one —
he knows both sides:
that these are not worth one sixteenth-sixteenth
of the bliss of blamelessness.

"Anana Sutta: Debtless" (AN 4.62), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 3 July 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Retrieved on 25 December 2012.

Put it this way, does the debt take away the bliss from your existence? :juggling: There are student debts now, housing loans, car loans, and when your children are born there are more loans just to buy them their infant formulae; take a look at what you have perhaps, and that includes your existing wealths and assets, whether personal or shared i.e. your parents', debts are a lifetime question and I reckon that you and I are not alone here :hug:
John1122
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:04 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by John1122 »

Lets just consider some of the people the Buddha allowed to ordain as monks. How about this one for starters Angulimala?
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Cittasanto »

John1122 wrote:Lets just consider some of the people the Buddha allowed to ordain as monks. How about this one for starters Angulimala?
And what is your point regarding the rules the Mendicants follow and the Debt issue without the Buddha about to allow or disallow an ordination?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Post Reply