The Buddha's path to liberation

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by Hanzze » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:10 am

starter wrote:Here is my current understanding of the Buddha's path:

Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:
→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-factored path that is aimed at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 factors and the understanding of 4NT → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Apply Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Right intention/thoughts [striving for non-covetousness (not covet for others' material or immaterial possession that are not entitled to oneself -- not harm others), non-ill will, non-harming]
→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]
→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual misconduct]
→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming livelihood] Addition
→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings]
→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness, Satipatthana]
→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi]
Addition: To get the right amount of perfection of the sila part, livelihood is very importand. The observing of 8 Silas is much better if possible.

In addition to livelihood, all (not only not-harming) aspects of right intention is importand, maybe you find some useful her: Right livelihood - Explainings and Suttas
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

starter
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:49 am

Dear daverupa, Hanzze and other friends,

Thanks for the very helpful comments and reference, which led to the finding of the following Agama sutta, which clearly explained the two paths (mundane 8-fold path and supramundane 8-fold path):

Translation of SĀ 785 by Ven. Anālayo (with my notes in parentheses)

Thus have I heard.

At one time the Buddha was dwelling at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s park. At that
time the Blessed One told the monks …

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見:not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見: being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right view that is [mundane], with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination? If one has the view
that there is [efficacy] in giving, there is [efficacy] in what is spoken … (up­ to) … the
knowledge that there are arahants in this world who will not experience a further existence — this is called right view in this world that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (defilements) gives attention that is conjoined to the Dharma [by way of] investigation, discrimination, inquiry, realization,
wisdom, awakening and contemplative examination — this is called right view that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


[苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應。於法選擇。分別推求。覺知黠慧。開覺觀察。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi?) contemplate each (view?), discriminate each (view as right or wrong view?"分別邪正、真妄", "抉擇正見"), investigate and inquire, breakthrough and realize, gain wisdom, awaken and contemplate]

What is right intention (and right thoughts)? Right intention (and right thoughts) is of two types: There is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is
right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be right intention (and right thoughts) [by way of] thoughts of renunciation (not-covet/not-craving), thoughts of non-ill-will, thoughts of non-harming — this is called right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good
destination.


What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes gives
attention that is conjoined to mental states [by way of] discrimination, self-determination,
understanding, repeated inclination and resolution — this is called right intention (and thoughts)
that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha
and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.


[[無漏 思惟相應心法。分別 自決 意解。計數 立意。In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each (intention/though?), discriminate each, resolve each, understand each. Count each and make resolution for right intention/thoughts]

What is right speech? Right speech is of two types: There is right speech that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right speech that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be right speech [by way of] abstaining from false
speech, from slander, from evil speech and from gossip — this is called right speech that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood 除邪命. 念口四惡行.諸餘口惡行。離於彼。無漏(于諸口恶行).遠離.不著。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the four unwholesome verbal conducts and all other unwholesome verbal conducts and abandon all of them, without wrong speech detach from wrong speech, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes abstains from the four evil verbal activities and
from any other evil verbal activities, removes them and detaches from them, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right speech that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right action? Right action is of two types: There is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination? This is reckoned to
be abstention from killing, from stealing and from sexual misconduct
— this is called right action that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood (除邪命。念身三惡行.諸餘身惡行數。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the three evil bodily conducts and all other unwholesome bodily conducts) with a mind that in the absence of influxes (without wrong action) does not delight in or attach to the three evil bodily activities or to any other of the number of evil bodily activities, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right action that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right livelihood? Right livelihood is of two types: There is right livelihood that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be seeking in accordance with the Dharma for robes and
food, for bedding and for medication in conformity with one’s disease, not [seeking for these]
against the Dharma — this is called right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes [without wrong livelihood] does not
delight in or attach to any wrong livelihood, he strongly guards himself against it and keeps
himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper time and bewares of not overstepping
bounds — this is called right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right effort? Right effort is of two types: There is right effort that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of duk­kha.

What is right effort that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in]
a good destination? This is reckoned to be energetic desire, putting forth surpassing exertion,
being firmly established in it, being able to arouse it, with mental states that take hold of
energy constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is mundane, with influxes,
with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly]
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, (無漏憶念相應心法。Without defilements recollect each of the Dhamma -- abandon wrong view, wrong intention/thoughts, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong Samadhi; develop right view ...) [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes has recollective
mindfulness conjoined to mental states [by way of] energetic desire and effort, putting forth
surpassing diligence, being established in it firmly, able to arouse energy, with mental states
that take hold of [energy] constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is
noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly] eradicates dukkha and turns
towards the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right mindfulness? Right mindfulness is of two types: There is right mindfulness that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right mind- fulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasp- ing,
that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is
not vain — this is called right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that
turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


[若念.隨念.重念.憶念。不妄.不虛。-- The mind has right mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/Dhamma); the mind follows each of the four mindfulness without distraction, unremittingly, without forgetfulness, not false/wrong, not vain]


What is right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, [that
rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (while in deep Samadhi) gives
attention that is conjoined to that [type of] mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is not
vain — this is called right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, [that rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is [when] the mind is settled without disturbance,
imperturbable, having taken hold of quietude and tranquillity, being concentrated (in Samadhi) and with a
unified mind — this is called right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, with a mind in the absence of influxes gives attention that is conjoined to
mental states that are settled without disturbance, without loss (不散 not scattered), having taken hold of
tranquillity, being concentrated and with a unified mind [苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應心法住。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each of the 4NT (Dhamma) and enter Samadhi][/u]
— this is called right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.”

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, the monks who had heard what the Buddha had said were
delighted and received it respectfully.

SA 784 (七八四)
如是我闻。一时佛住舍卫国祇树给孤独园。
尔时世尊告诸比丘:“有邪、有正,谛听善思,当为汝说。何等为邪?谓邪见乃至邪定。何等为
正?谓正见乃至正定。何等为正见?谓说有施、有说、有斋,有善行、有恶行、有善恶行果报,有
此世、有他世,有父母、有众生生,有阿罗汉善到、善向,有此世、他世,自知作证具足住:我生
已尽,梵行已立,所作已作,自知不受后有。何等为正志?谓出要志、无恚志、不害志。何等为正
语?谓离妄语、离两舌、离恶口、离绮语。何等为正业?谓离杀、盗、淫。何等为正命?谓如法求
衣服、饮食、卧具、汤药,非不如法。何等为正方便?谓欲精进,方便出离,勤竞堪能,常行不退。
何等为正念?谓念、随顺念,不妄不虚。何等为正定?谓住心不乱、坚固、摄持寂止、三昧一心。”
佛说此经已,诸比丘闻佛所说,欢喜奉行。

SN.45.8/(8) Vibhaṅgasuttaṃ
   8. Sāvatthinidānaṃ. “Ariyaṃ vo, bhikkhave, aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ desessāmi vibhajissāmi. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmī”ti. “Evaṃ, bhante”ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca–
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo? Seyyathidaṃ– sammādiṭṭhi …pe… sammāsamādhi.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, dukkhe ñāṇaṃ, dukkhasamudaye ñāṇaṃ dukkhanirodhe ñāṇaṃ, dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya ñāṇaṃ– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo? Yo kho, bhikkhave, nekkhammasaṅkappo abyāpādasaṅkappo, avihiṃsāsaṅkappo– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāvācā? Yā kho, bhikkhave, musāvādā veramaṇī, pisuṇāya vācāya veramaṇī, pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāvācā.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammākammanto? Yā kho, bhikkhave, pāṇātipātā veramaṇī, adinnādānā veramaṇī, abrahmacariyā veramaṇī – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammākammanto.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammā-ājīvo? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako micchā-ājīvaṃ pahāya sammā-ājīvena jīvitaṃ kappeti – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammā-ājīvo.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ anuppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati, uppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ pahānāya chandaṃ janeti …pe… anuppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ uppādāya chandaṃ janeti …pe… uppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsati.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti– ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhī”ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ.

(七八九)
如是我闻。一时佛住舍卫国祇树给孤独园。
时有生闻婆罗门来诣佛所,稽首佛足,与世尊面相问讯慰劳已,退坐一面,白佛言:“瞿昙,所
谓正见者,何等为正见?”
佛告婆罗门:“正见有二种:有正见世俗、有漏、有取、转向善趣;有正见是圣出世间、无漏、
不取、正尽苦、转向苦边。
“何等为正见世俗、有漏、有取、转向善趣?谓正见有施、有说、有斋,乃至自知不受后有。
婆罗门,是名正见世俗、有漏、有取、向于善趣。
“婆罗门,何等为正见是圣出世间、无漏、不取、正尽苦、转向苦边?谓圣弟子苦苦思惟,集、
灭、道道思惟,无漏思惟相应,于法选择、分别、求觉、巧便、黠慧、观察,是名正见是圣出世间、
无漏、不取、正尽苦、转向苦边。”
佛说此经已,生闻婆罗门闻佛所说,欢喜随喜,从座起去。

《杂阿含经》刘宋元嘉二十年(公元443 年) 求那跋陀罗 译 http://www.dhammatalks.net/Chinese/Dhamma7.pdf [good translation]

SA 785 雜阿含785經[正聞本1042經/佛光本797經](聖道分相應/道品誦/修多羅)(莊春江標點)
  如是我聞:
  一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。
  爾時,世尊告諸比丘(如上說,差別者):
  「何等為正見?謂正見有二種:有正見是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正見是聖、出世間、無漏、無取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正見有漏、有取、向於善趣?若彼見有施,有說,……乃至知世間有阿羅漢,不受後有,是名世間正見,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等為正見是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應於法,選擇、分別、推求、覺知、黠慧、開覺、觀察,是名正見,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正志?謂正志[有]二種:有正志世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正志有世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣?謂:正志出要覺,無恚覺,不害覺,是名正志,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,分別、自決、意解、計數、立意,是名正志,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正語?正語有二種:有正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣?謂:正語離妄語、兩舌、惡口、綺語,是名正語,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,除邪命{念}[貪],口四惡行,諸餘口惡行離,於彼無漏遠離不著,固守攝持不犯,不度時節,不越限防,是名正語,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正業?正業有二種:有正業世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正業,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:離殺、盜、婬,是名正業,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,除邪命{念}[貪],身三惡行,諸餘身惡行數,{於諸身惡行}無漏心不樂著,固守執持不犯,不度時節,不越限防,是名正業,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正命?正命有二種:有正命是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正命世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:如法求衣食、臥具、隨病湯藥,非不如法,是名正命,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,於諸邪命,無漏不樂著,固守執持不犯,不越時節,不度限防,是名正命,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正方便?正方便有二種:有正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:欲精進,方便超出,堅固建立,堪能造作,精進心法攝受,常不休息,是名正方便,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、[正]盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏憶念相應心法,欲精進方便,勤踊超出,建立堅固,堪能造作,精進心法攝受,常不休息,是名正方便,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正念?正念有二種:[有正念是]世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正念世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?若念、隨念、重念、憶念,不妄不虛,是名正念,世俗、有漏、有取、正向善趣。
  何等為正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應,若念、隨念、重念、憶念,不妄不虛,是名正念,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正定?正定有二種:有正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?若心住不亂不動,攝受寂止、三昧、一心,是名正定,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,住不亂不散,攝受寂止、三昧、一心,是名正定,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。」
  佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。

Metta to all!
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Hanzze
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:10 am

which clearly explained the two path
Dear Starter,

I would not call them two paths even they seem to be. Its quite better to walk the path and seek for additional advices if the aspects of the path become so subtile that they seem to be no more present. Of course, while disscussing it, its sometimes useful to make a make if one talks about the worldly asspects or the higher aspects.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

starter
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:05 pm

The Chinese translation of assavas (or better "leaks") not only means the three root defilements ("leak" for sensual pleasures, "leak" for being/becoming, and "leak" for ignorance), but also means not intact/perfect in something (with defect in something) -- only when something has a "leak", the "influxes" can come in and "effluxes" can go out. As can be seen in the Chinese translation of SĀ 785: "於諸邪命,無漏不樂著" [no "leak" (defect) and no delight in/attachments to wrong action/livelihood], "in the absence of influxes" actually means "being perfected in right action". The same applied to all the path factors defined in SĀ 785, SĀ 789, and MN 117:

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見:not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見: being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

...

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes (有漏于正定:not being perfected in right concentration), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正定: being perfected in right concentration), without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha."

MN 117:

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with influxes, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without influxes (being perfected in right view), transcendent, a factor of the path. ... the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from influxes (has no wrong view), who is fully possessed of the noble path (the path factor of right view). This is the right view that is without influxes (defects), transcendent, a factor of the path."


To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana). For the supramundane path each path factor is perfected and hence has no "leak" for each; the noble disciples perfect and hence possess each path factor one after another, which leads to liberation from dukkha (destined for nibbana).

Metta to all!
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Hanzze
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 am

Starter,
To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana).
A good destination (think on counciousness) is a require and the first turn of the wheel. The worldly eigthfold path is nothing but the first turn of the wheel. If established for the first time (sotapanna) one can go an to the higher aspects.

But I tell you, if one is attached to the higher aspects and have not developed the worldy path yet, he might fail both.

You can call the higher aspects of the eightfold path also mahayana if you wish.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

whynotme
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by whynotme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:00 am

I see your effort. Actually this is the type of discussion I love, but I see my knowledge and experience is not enough yet. Just wish you best wishes

Regards.
Please stop following me

starter
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:43 pm

Dear Hanzze, whynotme, and other friends,

Thanks for the comments.

I've to admit I don't really understand what exactly the noble right intention/thought is as explained in SĀ 785 & MN 117:

MN 117:
And what is the right resolve that is without "leaks", transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion (penetrate and resolve?), focused awareness, & verbal fabrications (?) of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without "leaks", who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without "leaks", transcendent, a factor of the path.

[PS: Horner translates:
"And what, monks, is the right purpose that is ariyan, cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way? Whatever, monks, is reasoning,(takka) initial thought (vitakka) purpose, an activity of speech through the complete focusing and application of the mind in one who, by developing the ariyan Way, is of ariyan (thought), of cankerless (thought), and (is conversant with) the ariyan Way-- this, monks is right purpose that is ariyan, cankerless, supermundane, a component of the way."]

SĀ 785:
What is right intention/thought that is noble, supramundane, without "leaks", without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be:
a noble disciple attends to suffering and contemplates suffering; attends to the cause of suffering and contemplates the cause; attends to the cessation of suffering and contemplates the cessation; attends to the path and contemplates the path; in the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplates each Dhamma (non-sensuality/non-ill will/non-harming?), discriminates each (intention/thought) (as wholesome/beneficial or not?), resolves each (intention/thought as wholesome/beneficial or not?), understands each, count each ("verbal fabrications" as in MN 117, but what it means?) and make resolution for right intention/thoughts.

何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,分別、自決、意解、計數、立意,是名正志,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。

Hope to get some input about this. Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by daverupa » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:10 pm

starter wrote:Hope to get some input about this. Metta to all!
Try setting the mundane/supramundane dichotomy to one side (and, as a result, definitions which revolve around that). It's not attested very often, is probably late, and reflects Indian thinking in general, rather than Dhammic thinking in particular, it seems to me. The whole thing generates more questions than it answers - rather, it seems to me to be ad hoc reasoning with the goal of squaring teachings on anatta with indigenous merit practices, and as such isn't at all important to an understanding of the Dhamma, as I understand it.

From the earlier paper:
Analayo wrote:Closer scrutiny of the discourse itself shows that some of the Pāli terms used in the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta’s definition of supramundane right intention, such as “fixing” (appanā) of the mind and “mental inclination” (cetaso abhiniropanā), are not found in other discourses and belong to the type of language used only in the Abhidharma and historically later Pāli texts.
:soap:

Try something simple: intentions of renunciation, non-ill-will, and harmlessness. These general guidelines, as a definition, are deficient in which way(s)?

:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by santa100 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:47 pm

starter wrote:
"...verbal fabrications (?)..."
The MN 117 version as tranlasted by Ven. Thanissaro ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct (lying, divisive talk, abusive speech, idle chatter) of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."

starter
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:18 pm

Hello daverupa, santa100 and other friends,

I listened to the sutta teaching of Ven. Bodhi on MN 117, and understood now in MN 117 a number of synonyms describing the same mental factor/faculty were used for the noble right intention/thought (intentional thinking): thinking, thought, intention, directing/inclination of the mind + fixation of the mind + absorption of the mind (on an intention/thought -- non-sensuality, or non-ill will, or non-cruelty); this mental factor is responsible for verbal formation (speech).

As to those terms used in SĀ 785 and SĀ 789 describing the noble right intention/thought, they have a bit deeper meaning into the intentional thinking process: discriminate (between wholesome and unwholesome resolve/thinking), resolve, understand, repeatedly incline/direct the mind (計數?) and make resolution for right resolve/thinking. [何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,分別、自決、意解、計數、立意,是名正志,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。]

Also a number of synonyms describing the same mental factor (wisdom) were used for the noble right view in MN 117 and SĀ 785 : discriminate (a view as right or wrong view "分別邪正、真妄", "抉擇正見"), investigate and inquire, breakthrough and realize (what's wrong view and what's right view). [何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應。於法選擇。分別推求。覺知黠慧。開覺觀察。]

These three suttas (MN 117, SĀ 785 and SĀ 789) are indeed different from the other suttas in how they defined the N8P -- instead of defining the path factors in terms of results, they defined the path factors more in terms of mental faculties/processes, helping us understand how to obtain those results. The most helpful aspect of the two Agama suttas is that they teach those who have understood 4NT how to perfect each path factor by using the transcendental/supramundane approach of 4NT, instead of only the mundane approach of the Kamma law. The mundane understanding of Kamma causation-consequence can only lead to rebirth in a good destination because such understanding is not enough to eradicate ignorance, sensual desire and desire for continued existence, and hence it's the mundane path. Only the comprehension of 4NT and its application in our practice can lead to Nibbana, and hence it's the supramundane path. It's not that the noble path throws away the 8 path factors, but that it employs a more powerful approach (together with the mundane approach) to perfect each path factor, to my understanding.

It's important that we use our independent/critical thinking to discriminate and investigate if a sutta teaching is genuine or not, instead of depending upon inference/here sayings -- this is exactly the noble right view that these three suttas teach us.

Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vinasp
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by vinasp » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:09 pm

Hi starter,

Even though I have been studying the Nikayas for twenty years, I still do not understand MN 117.

"And what is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without asava's, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path."

Here are some thoughts, which may, of course, be completely wrong.

1. The phrase 'noble path'. Could it be that that the 'transcendent' sections are not
talking about the noble eightfold path, but about a noble path? Perhaps the noble
eightfold path is what is called the learners path (sekha), and that there is a final
section for the non-learner (asekha). This is sometimes called the 'tenfold path' and
sometimes the 'arahants path'.

2. The phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's'. This is very puzzling. Many
passages which seem to be describing enlightenment speak of the destruction of the
three asava's. It is usually understood that an arahant has destroyed these three
asava's, and that this represents the end of the path.

But, perhaps the destruction of the three asava's represents the completion of the
learners path. This would mean that the 'transcendent' sections of MN 117 are speaking
of a non-learner.

This could be discussed on another thread if you wish.

Regards, Vincent.

starter
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:55 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi starter,

Even though I have been studying the Nikayas for twenty years, I still do not understand MN 117.
--It might be too bold for me to comment on your understanding of the sutta as a starter who has studied it for only a couple of times; but I'll try.

"And what is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without asava's, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path."

Here are some thoughts, which may, of course, be completely wrong.

1. The phrase 'noble path'. Could it be that that the 'transcendent' sections are not
talking about the noble eightfold path, but about a noble path? Perhaps the noble
eightfold path is what is called the learners path (sekha), and that there is a final
section for the non-learner (asekha). This is sometimes called the 'tenfold path' and
sometimes the 'arahants path'.
--I agree with you that the 'noble path' here means a particular path (Right intention/thought) instead of the whole N8P. The section for the non-learner (who hasn't understood 4NT) is what I call the mundane path, which aims at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 path factors and the understanding of 4NT. The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT) is what I call the Noble path, which aims at the perfection of the 8 path factors leading to the fruits of Right knowledge and Right liberation ("10-fold path").

2. The phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's'. This is very puzzling. Many
passages which seem to be describing enlightenment speak of the destruction of the
three asava's. It is usually understood that an arahant has destroyed these three
asava's, and that this represents the end of the path.

-- The Chinese translation of asavas ("leaks") can mean not only the three root defilements ("leak" for sensual desires, "leak" for being/becoming, and "leak" for ignorance), but also not intact/perfect in something -- only when something has a "leak", the "influxes" can come in and "effluxes" can go out. I'd interpret the phrase 'the right resolve that is without asava's' as 'the right resolve that is being perfected', therefore "who is fully possessed of the noble path (of right solve)".

I tend to interpret the phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's' as '(one) whose mind is without wrong resolve (being perfected in right resolve'), especially because it's immediately followed by the phrase 'who is fully possessed of the noble path'.


Just my two cents, which could be wrong. Metta to all!

vinasp
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by vinasp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi starter,

It seems that you have not understood my post correctly. This is my fault, I should
have taken more trouble to explain clearly.

The passage which I quoted was just an example to show the words used. I took one of your
quotes, and edited it. But I was commenting on the whole of MN 117.

starter: "I agree with you that the 'noble path' here means a particular path (Right intention/thought) instead of the whole N8P."

You misunderstood me here. What I meant was that the path from stream entry to
non-returner, which has eight factors, is called the learners (sekha) course (path).
The final part, from non-return to arahant, which has ten factors, is called, in MN 117,
'the noble path'.

starter: " The section for the non-learner (who hasn't understood 4NT) is what I call the mundane path, which aims at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 path factors and the understanding of 4NT."

In the four Pali Nikaya's, the asekha (non-learner) is a higher stage than the sekha
(learner). The one who has not yet understood the 4NT is the puthujjana (worldling,
or the ordinary man).

starter: "The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT) is what I call the Noble path, which aims at the perfection of the 8 path factors leading to the fruits of Right knowledge and Right liberation ("10-fold path")."

What I would say is this: The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT)
is what I call the 'trainee's course', it has eight factors and is the first, and main
part of the noble eightfold path, up to non-returner. Beyond this the path has ten
factors. This final part of the path is called, in MN 117, the noble path.

Because 'this world' has ceased for a non-returner, and he has arisen in the 'other
world', the last part of the path is called 'lokuttara' (world transcending, supramundane, transcendent.)

These are just some ideas, do not worry if they make no sense to you.

Kind regards, Vincent.

SarathW
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:21 am

[quote="starter"]Dear daverupa, Hanzze and other friends,

Thanks for the very helpful comments and reference, which led to the finding of the following Agama sutta, which clearly explained the two paths (mundane 8-fold path and supramundane 8-fold path):

Hi Starter- Thanks for providing some infomation about Agama sutta. Can a none Buddhist possess Mundane Right View. For example say Bodhisatta or Jesus Christ?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

starter
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Post by starter » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Hello SarathW, vinasp and other friends,

Thanks for your comments. As to SarathW's question about mundane right view, here is the Buddha's definition:

'And what is the right view that has assavas ["leaks" (not being perfected)], sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' [MN 117]

It seems to me that a none Buddhist can possess mundane right view. However, since s/he isn't following the Buddha's teaching, s/he wouldn't be walking the Buddha's 8-fold path toward the understanding of 4NT (the supramundane right view), and won't enter the Noble 8-fold path toward Nibbana. Therefore, a Bodhisatta will have to stay in Samsara until all his paramis are perfected and then become a self-enlightened Buddha, without a teacher. We are lucky to be born in an era when the Buddha's teaching is still accessible, so as long as we follow his teaching and walk the 8-fold path we can become enlightened and liberated even within this life time.

Metta to all!

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