Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Aloka
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by Aloka » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:30 pm

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

Thoughts

Thanks
Hi Ervin

I recommend listening to this talk about kamma given at Amarati Monastery UK by Ajahn Amaro "Who's Pulling the Strings?"

http://www.blubrry.com/amaravatitalks1/ ... talk-2012/

kind regards,

Aloka

befriend
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by befriend » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:50 pm

anyone here whos meditated for not that long has seen that when one is practicing samatha meditation sometimes you are temporarily incapable of thinking anything bad. it just cant arise. food for thought.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

santa100
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by santa100 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:01 pm

Ervin wrote:
"Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school"

You might want to check out this thread to see the difference between knowledge/intelligence versus wisdom..

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Hanzze
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by Hanzze » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 am

Ervin wrote:Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school.
Dear Erwin,

that does not realy count as insight, wisdom or panna. Of coures there are people who do evil even if they are intelectual from much knowledge, there are even "good" people who do at least evil. That is all about defilements, not understanding the reality.
Non of them will act without the idea of "I" and "you" and as long there is the idea of persons and beings rather then actions and its effects, one will at least always do more or less evil till the time when it is understood.

The reason for each desire is the not understanding. There is no good or bad desire, good or bad (in our frame of normal thinking) is at least just an agreement. Desire is desire and alsways the cause of suffering. Not causing kamma means being free of deire because the is no more wrong view. To come to this we need some noble desire, to get free of desire, to ubstain from what is unskillfull (bad) and to develope skillfull (good) ways and in this way get free from our defilements (wrong view) step by step.

Actually there is much danger in gaining Buddhist knowledge and techniques without having a general tendency to virtue. You might know such things like kamikaze as sample, also "crazy wisdom" (which is found often amoung Zen, or Tibetan traditions) falls into this category.

When knowledge is mixed with desire it is called "maya"
In some cases, tanha lobha is called maya. Therefore, the nature of maya will be explained herein. Maya is like a magician, a conjurer. Just as the magician picks up a stone and makes the audience believe it to be gold nugget; just so maya does conceal one's faults. It means one who exercises maya pretends to be flawless though he is not.
and also "Satheyya" fits well to your thoughts, but that has nothing to do with wisdom, insight or enligthenment.
Along with maya, satheyya should also be understood. When one pretends to have certain qualities and make other think highly of him, such kind of lobha is called satheyya. Maya conceals one's faults and pretends to be faultless, whereas satheyya pretends to have non-existence qualities. Both of them are trickeries or deceptions.
You will find some samples for it in the links. Take them with responsibility and put virtue always higher, you can nothing but hurt your self at least and it would hurt if one denies virtue, no way to run away.

There is for example a Dhammapada story which might show also the danger for a fool who gains knowledge rather than to trust his own goodness:
The Story of Satthikutapeta

While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (72) of this book with reference to a peta-ghost named Satthikutapeta.

The Chief Disciple Maha Moggallana saw this enormous peta-ghost while going on an alms-round with Thera Lakkhana. In this connection, the Buddha explained that Satthikutapeta, in one of his previous existences, was very skilful in throwing stones at things. One day, he asked permissions from his teacher to try out his skill. His teacher told him not to hit a cow, or a human being as he would have to pay compensation to the owner or to the relative, but to find a target which was ownerless or guardianless.

On seeing the paccekabuddha, the idiots lacking in intelligence, thought the paccekabuddha, having no relative or guardian, would be an ideal target. So he threw a stone at the paccekabuddha who was on an alms-round. The stone entered from one ear and came out of the other. The paccekabuddha expired when he reached the monastery. The stone-thrower was killed by the disciples of the paccekabuddha and he was reborn in Avici Niraya. Afterwards, he was reborn as a peta-ghost and had since been serving the remaining term of the evil consequences (kamma) of his evil deed. As a peta-ghost his enormous head was being continuously hit with red-hot hammers.

In conclusion, the Buddha said, "To a fool, his skill or knowledge is of no use; it can only harm him."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 72: The skill of a fool can only harm him; it destroys his merit and his wisdom (lit., it severs his head).


Not to much posts training: 3. Post/ 4.10. 9:27 am (accordiny messurement 7 posts the last 24h) current value: 8. post
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

barcsimalsi
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by barcsimalsi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:59 am

Ervin wrote:Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school.
Knowledge is the essence of wisdom but why there are bad/rotten lawyers, presidents, professors, doctors, scientists...?
It is because the knowledge they have did not support the right view. What they have is just education for specific profession. However there are many who knew well what is bad but still can't help from doing bad.

Because everyone is born with different characters, some are patience, some greedy, some stubborn, some loving, some just like to see people suffer..., only understanding isn't enough to restraint human from doing bad things. That's why Buddhism furnish the noble 8 foldpath. 1)right view/understanding 2)right thoughts 3)right speech 4)right action 5)right livelihood 6)right effort 7)right mindfulness 8)right concentration

In some religion, people blame individual wrong choice for doing evil and don't really bother to trace what exactly contribute us to make wrong choice. Some will repent and seek forgiveness from God but the evil in them keep returning...

To understand Buddhism, it is best to first acknowledge its fundamental teaching which is the 4 noble truth:
1. to understand life is cruel and suffering
2. to trace the cause that leads to evil deed and suffering
3. to understand the cause must be eliminate
4. to practice the way to eliminate the cause

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ground
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by ground » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:03 am

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

Thoughts

Thanks
Yes. Correct. However the scope of kamma is not only the thought object "kamma" but everything that can be thought or believed. The scope of kamma are all moments of arisen consciousness. :sage:

barcsimalsi
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by barcsimalsi » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:36 am

Some where in the sutta mentioned that consciousness cannot exist without a body. Consciousness only ends when an enlighten person dies. But the point that restrict my comprehending is what exactly that is happy during Nirvana? with no self/identity, no feelings/perception, no consciousness, no thoughts...there's no measurement to identify anything in that state. Hate to say this but it sounds like forever sleeping dead.

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ground
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by ground » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:47 am

barcsimalsi wrote:Consciousness only ends when an enlighten person dies.
Assuming that the death of the brain entails cessation of consciousness this may indicate that everybody is already enlightened which of course is not the religious perspective but speculative anyway :sage:

Digity
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by Digity » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:44 am

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

Thoughts

Thanks
This is silly. What you believe has no relevance on whether something is factual. For instance, whether you believe gravity exists or not doesn't change the fact that it exists. Besides, karma is witnessable. If you go and kill someone you'll be considered a bad person and people will be out to find you. If they catch you you'll either go to jail or be executed. That's karma in the here and now. Whatever you believe wouldn't change the fact that you're ass is going to jail if you get caught.

barcsimalsi
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by barcsimalsi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:11 am

ground wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:Consciousness only ends when an enlighten person dies.
Assuming that the death of the brain entails cessation of consciousness this may indicate that everybody is already enlightened which of course is not the religious perspective but speculative anyway :sage:
Shall i correct it to "consciousness never rise again when enlighten beings died".

whynotme
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by whynotme » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:12 pm

Well, ground meant if you were atheist then you would achieved nibbana after death in atheist's view, and noone cries about it. So now what exactly do you worry about nibbana?

Remember that at the Buddha's time, he didn't teach nibbana to lay people because of its difficulity, normally they were taught the way to heavens or better lives. Even after attained enlightenment, he didn't want to teach it. You asked a question far ahead of yourself

Ven. Sariputta once said let view nibbana as happiness, no more pain, no more age, no more disease, no more sadness, no more sorrow,.. just a few examples of its benefits, no more suffering

Regards
Please stop following me

barcsimalsi
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by barcsimalsi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:51 am

whynotme wrote:Well, ground meant if you were atheist then you would achieved nibbana after death in atheist's view, and noone cries about it. So now what exactly do you worry about nibbana?
As enlighten means awaken, i like to know that if there is something to make sure the enlightened individual is aware of where and what during Nirvana.

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waimengwan
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by waimengwan » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:37 am

If we did not believe i gravity and we try to jump off a building that gravity still applies to us. Karma just happens to be a universal law that even if the people who do not believe in karma, people who believe in a creator god they also subject to the same laws of karma.

Yes technically if u are enlightened u could be an all superior being and you as do as you want, the problem is you do not see the point of being 'good' or 'evil' anymore and if were a Samyak Sambuddha who perfected the all his paramis, and who became enlightened for the sake of all sentient beings, and you practiced for many kalpas or aeons, with that kind of motivation like compassion. Would you suddenly be uncompassionate because he just can and because he can get away away with it? Anything is probable, but this is highly unlikely to happen.

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zavk
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by zavk » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:27 am

Hi all

I just read this essay on 'Belief' by Buddhist scholar-practitioner Donald Lopez Jr. I highly, highly recommend it. The entire essay can be read on Google Books: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zhc ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it would not only lend perspective to this particular discussion but also help us to become more aware of the possible blindspots and critical oversights in our understanding of Buddhism. The essay elucidates how the received understanding of belief-as-the-essential-core-of-religion is ideologically laden with Western and Christian assumptions, such that it becomes problematic to apply it universally to the other wisdom and sacred traditions of the world, including Buddhism, which we have come to categorised under the label 'World's Religion'. The essay includes a discussion of how Henry Steel Olcott, co-founder of Theosophy, was blind to the ideology of belief driving his attempts at reviving what he perceived to be a Sinhalese Buddhism in decay, setting up Buddhist Sunday schools and composing the Buddhist Catechism in the style of Christian catechisms. He was eventually denounced by the Sinhalese Buddhists after he disparaged their veneration of the Buddha tooth relic. In relation to this Lopez writes:

'The fact that no Sinhalese Buddhist had produced a text that reduced Buddhism to its belief suggests that the category of belief is not so easily transferred from one society to another, and that those who seek to do so are subject to the consequences of their deed.'

Reads to me like an allusion to kamma! :smile:

Anyway, to pique your interest I've attached a screenshot of the concluding paragraph.

:anjali:
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With metta,
zavk

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:25 pm

Kamma, volition and tanha are three words for the same thing: the drive to become, to be-- "I-making." At least according to the Suttas.
AN 6.63
PTS: A iii 410
Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.
Best explanation I ever found to explain the relationship/equality of these three terms is in Ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula's What the Buddha Taught.

In fact I went ahead and did the work. Here's the very passage:
Of these four, the last mentioned 'mental volition' is the will to live, to exist, to
continue, to become more and more. It creates the root of existence and continuity,
striving forward by way of good and bad actions (kusalakusalakamma). It is the
same as 'Volition'(cetana). We have seen earlier that volition is karma, as the
Buddha himself has defined it. Referring to 'Mental volition' just mentioned above
the Buddha says: 'When one understands the nutriment of mental volition one
understands the three forms of 'thirst'(tanha)'.

Thus the terms 'thirst', 'volition', 'mental volition' and 'karma' all denote the
same thing : they denote the desire, the will to be, to exist. To re-exist, to become
more and more, to grow more and more, to accumulate more and more. This is the
cause of the arising of dukkha, and this is found within the Aggregate of Mental
Formations one of the Five Aggregates which constitute a being.

Here is one of the most important and essential points in the Buddha's
teaching. We must therefore clearly and carefully mark and remember that the
cause, the germ, of the arising of dukkha is within dukkha itself, and not outside; and
we must equally well remember that the cause, the germ, of the cessation of dukkha,
of the destruction of dukkha, is also within dukkha itself, and not outside.
Which I think is one of the best passages I've ever read.

How it connects to belief: isn't "belief" an intentional act? Do --or do we not -- choose our beliefs? I will tell you that in a conversation with arch-skeptic Dr. Ray Hyman he absolutely astounded me (not an easy thing to do BTW) by flatly stating to me, "I have no control over my beliefs."

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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