Buddhism and politics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Dhammanando »

Rui Sousa wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: Russell Kirk's Ten Conservative Principles
http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html
(..)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
To my surprise, because of my ignorance of what conservative meant, I subscribe all ten principles.

:reading:

...
:jawdrop:

Splendid. I don't feel so lonely now. :smile:
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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gavesako
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by gavesako »

How do you interpret the Temiya Jataka (a prince totally refusing to enter the political sphere for fear of making bad kamma)?
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cooran
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by cooran »

Hello Ven. Gavesako,

Would you say that being elected as a member of Parliament and voting on whether to increase the funding for roads and bridges, or to increase funding for hospitals is on the same level as the action of Temiya-kumaros' father Kasiraja in sentencing four robbers? He sentenced the first to a thousand strokes from whips barbed with thorns, another to be imprisoned in chains, a third to be smitten with a spear, the fourth to be impaled?

metta and respect,
Chris
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gavesako
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by gavesako »

Some scholars interpret this Jataka as presenting the Buddhist view of personal responsibility for all our actions (kamma), even though we may feel justified -- due to our social role -- in punishing criminals and so on, still we have to bear the ethical consequences of that. This would naturally lead one out of the sphere of politics, although involvement in areas which have no negative impact on others should be all right.

See also this text discussing Buddhist political philosophy based on Jatakas and later apocryphal Jataka-tales:

The Kurudhamma: From Ethics to Statecraft
http://www.buddhistethics.org/2/huxley.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Jechbi »

Dhammanando wrote:Russell Kirk's Ten Conservative Principles
http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html
Hmmmm. Here's the first principal:
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order. That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent.

This word order signifies harmony. There are two aspects or types of order: the inner order of the soul, and the outer order of the commonwealth. Twenty-five centuries ago, Plato taught this doctrine, but even the educated nowadays find it difficult to understand. ...
So what if we state the converse? As in:
The non-conservative believes that no enduring moral order exists. There is no order made for man, and man is not made for any order. Human nature is inconstant, and moral truths are impermanent. ...
Which seems like an unworkable premise in politics in any context.

These "principals" read more like a blend of social platitudes -- and fictional generalizations like this:
Liberals and radicals, the conservative says, are imprudent: for they dash at their objectives without giving much heed to the risk of new abuses worse than the evils they hope to sweep away.
Like, for example, the deregulation that brought us the current global recession? I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that financial and industry deregulation was brought to us by "liberals and radicals" as the terms ordinarily are understood. (Maybe blame it on "radical conservatives"?) (Although in the U.S. admittedly a lot of it occurred under Bill Clinton's watch.)

These 10 conservative principles remind me of the politicians whose planks include things like opposition to child abuse. Who's not going to be against child abuse? It's a reverse strawman phenomenon, wherein the "conservative" defines the parameters of social discourse in such a way that a statement of the converse will sound unreasonable.

I guess that makes me a liberal? Or maybe there's a middle way ...
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jechbi,

Most of your comments are off target.

Firstly, you seem to have overlooked the remark in my opening post: "The most political Buddhist text of all —the Mahasupina Jataka— reads almost like a manifesto of classical western conservatism (though not of what goes by the name of 'conservatism' in contemporary Britain or America)."

"Classical western conservatism" is generally understood as referring to Burke and his followers in the Anglo-Saxon world, and to the likes of Joseph de Maistre on the Continent. So your bringing up the policies of the so-called Neo-cons etc. is a bit beside the point.

Secondly, what Kirk refers to as the imprudent ideologies of "liberals and radicals" (in his book, The Politics of Prudence) are the rationalism of the French philosophes, the moral skepticism of Hume and Rousseau, the utilitarianism of Bentham, the positivism of Auguste Comte's school, and the collectivistic materialism of Marx and other socialists. In other words, he was taking a rather longer historical view than you seemed to be supposing in your reply.
Jechbi wrote:So what if we state the converse? As in:
The non-conservative believes that no enduring moral order exists. There is no order made for man, and man is not made for any order. Human nature is inconstant, and moral truths are impermanent. ...
Which seems like an unworkable premise in politics in any context.
I would say that it's ultimately unworkable, but that hasn't been an impediment to its being adopted by non-conservatives, either across the board (as, for example by Marxists and Nazis) or in an issue-specific fashion (as, for example, with the feminist support for abortion).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Individual »

One might also consider the similarities between Anarchist Communism and the early model of the Sangha...

...All simply friends, without any money, working voluntarily and selflessly towards mutual benefit.

I can't imagine any Conservative -- modern or not -- creating such a thing. On the contrary, wouldn't it be unconservative for the Buddha to be such a radical social reformer (of the Hindu caste system, animal sacrifices, etc.)? From a Burkean POV, it would've been ludicrous for the Buddha to oppose such things, because the traditions developed "organically" in reaction to the particular conditions.
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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Jechbi »

Hello Bhante,

Politics and religion. Time to tread carefully.
Dhammanando wrote:... you seem to have overlooked the remark in my opening post: "The most political Buddhist text of all —the Mahasupina Jataka— reads almost like a manifesto of classical western conservatism (though not of what goes by the name of 'conservatism' in contemporary Britain or America)."
Despite how it may appear to you, I didn't overlook your remark. But my post was not a direct response to your remarks. Rather, I was responding in the context of this discussion to the 10 conservative "principles" espoused on the above-referenced Kirk website.
Dhammanando wrote:Most of your comments are off target.
Is that so? The OP stated, in part, "... I personally can't really see how Buddhism and conservatism would ever be compatible." In response, the Kirk principles were offered as an example of how conservatism (according to Kirk's definition of it) is comaptible with the Buddhadhamma. With regard to your remarks, you seem to imply that if the Buddha were involved in politics, he would be a conservative.

The Kirk "principles" are presented in the context of "conservativism" as it is practiced in the modern world. The Kirk Center website includes photos of Kirk with the likes of Reagan and William F. Buckley, Jr. The Kirk Center website describes its programs in the following terms:
The Russell Kirk Center wrote:They celebrate and defend the “permanent things” — all that makes human life worth living, particularly the bedrock principles that have traditionally supported and maintained the health of society’s central institutions: family, church, and school.
Frankly, I think it's absurd to argue that the Kirk approach somehow shares a close affinity with the Buddhadhamma.

We can quibble over what the term "conservative" actually means. One might say that the modern understanding of "conservative" bears no relationship at all to what the term actually means, as defined by individuals such as Kirk. In that case, Kirk's "principals" can't really be held out as exemplifying "conservativism" in a discussion about real-world politics. Alternatively, one might say that the modern understanding of "conservative" bears some relationship to what the term actually means, as defined by individuals such as Kirk. That appears to be the underlying assumption here.

Regardless, if one wishes to get an understanding of "conservativism," the 10 principles are of very little use, because they are not principles at all. Rather, they are a blend of platitudes and generalizations.

In the real world, the difference between "conservative" and "progressive" comes down to this: Members of society find themselves in the churning waters of real life. The conservative principle is, "Sink or swim." The progressive principle is, "Here, put on these water wings." Neither approach is going to calm the churning waters. Both approaches have their merits depending on the context of the situation. So which approach bears greater affinity with the Buddhadhamma? I guess that will depend on whether one is focused more on metta or more on adhitthana. In other words, it depends.

But I would be very reluctant to hold Russell Kirk out as a conservative whose political views reflect principles taught by the Buddha.

Metta
:anjali:

edited: to fix spelling error
Last edited by Jechbi on Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Individual »

Reading over Kirk's ten principles, I'd add that they seem to be such broad virtues that they could apply to any ideology. Furthermore, in the Mahasupina Jataka I see nothing to justify any political view because the Buddha is describing virtues, not political notions, even if he is using a political background to make his point. Of the sixteen virtues he describes (like not accepting bribes, not being a pedophile, honoring your parents etc.), none are exclusive to Conservatism, but all would be accepted by a follower of virtually any ideology. If anything, I think that the social conservatism among Asian Buddhist monastics has more to do with Confucius than Buddha, because it was actually Confucius who was a conservative in the classical western sense, and he had a very massive influence even on his schools' opponents.
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gavesako
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by gavesako »

I listened to a talk between Ajahn Chah and a group of visitors headed by Sanya Dharmasakti (Chief Privy Councillor). Ajahn Chah was talking about the principle of kamma. Then one of the visitors, a military officer, asked about "doing one's duty" which might mean using violence sometimes. Ajahn Chah's reply was very direct: no matter if you call it "your duty" or not, if you use violence to kill living beings, it is definitely bad kamma. He emphasised that Dhamma and worldly laws are quite separate, that the law of kamma operates outside of the conventions of society. He kind of paused a little, because his visitors were high ranking Bangkok civil servants and officers, but then stressed again: you can't say that you haven't committed bad kamma by calling it "your duty". It may be necessary in order to keep law and order in society to use some harsh methods, but it is nevertheless within the sphere of kamma. He didn't make any flattering comments to them because of their social rank, he just gave them straight Dhamma using some down-to-earth similies.
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gavesako
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by gavesako »

Buddhism and Socio-Economic Development

The Setting

From the earliest days of history, when human beings began to organize themselves into society, there has been an inter-play of two powerful agents of control, namely, State and Capital. The State is the focus of politics and political organisations; and Capital in the focus of business or economics, and economic manipulation. In the pre-Christian era of the sub-continent, in the days of the Buddha, these factors exerted a great control over society. Prince Siddhartha himself was part of the group linked to the first-named factor, the State, hailing from the princely house of the Sakya. Similarly, the money factor, Capital, exerted an immense influence over the thinking of the masses, and brought about, that initially stirred the thinking of Gautama, and then led him on to discover of the Arya Satya, the Four Noble Truths.

However, as the Venerable Santikaro Bhikkhu of Thailand points out, there is always a third powerful player in the dynamics of cities and states, namely, religion, the reference is the organised religion, which has been playing a balancing role between the competing interests of state and capital. True, Buddhism is not a 'religion,' as per the generally accepted notion of religion: God, sacrifice and intermediaries such as priests. Yet, in common parlance, Buddhism serves the role played by religion, especially in countries where the Buddhist population is dominant. Examples are Thailand, Burma [Myanmar], or even Sri Lanka or Tibet. (...)

http://www.rakhapura.com/articles/buddh ... opment.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Perhaps also relevant to the topic.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Popo
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Popo »

Jechbi wrote:It's a reverse strawman phenomenon, wherein the "conservative" defines the parameters of social discourse in such a way that a statement of the converse will sound unreasonable.
To be fair, the type of conservative he is (and the type of "liberal" most of us would describe ourselves as) is a hodge-podge taking in insights from many different thinkers.. The classic conservative excepts the liberal's argument for progress and the classic liberal accepts that tradition carries insight (JS Mill wrote a lot on prudence in government, and he was certainly a liberal.) Most of us (non-radicals) except most of the Ten Principles as sane - especially with his addendums.

The big difference between liberals and conservatives, in that author's opinion, is at the end:
No, on one side of that line are all those men and women who fancy that the temporal order is the only order, and that material needs are their only needs, and that they may do as they like with the human patrimony. On the other side of that line are all those people who recognize an enduring moral order in the universe, a constant human nature, and high duties toward the order spiritual and the order temporal.
So he's basically bringing up the Stoic versus Epicurean debate from ancient times. :)
Is morality and political order something we create for our own mundane benefit. Or, is morality grounded in a higher reality that should be pursued for it's own sake.

Sorry if I'm rambling, I took theraflu and I'm kind of dizzy.

best wishes

Esteban
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

politics are totally incompatible in my opinion. agreeing with chairman mao that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by form »

Perry wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:48 am As someone interested in politics, I have briefly read about the Buddhist stance on politics but not a huge amount.

Is strict Buddhism and strong political opinions compatible? I mean, is Buddhism essentially exclusive to a certain political beliefs or ideal, or is it generally quite open?

As someone who isn't hugely knowledgeable about general Buddhism yet, I personally can't really see how Buddhism and conservatism would ever be compatible, but maybe I'm wrong (not that it ultimately matters, I'm quite liberal actually lol).

Thanks.
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Re: Buddhism and politics

Post by thepea »

I think the political Covid fiasco absolutely destroys Dhammandanno’s belief that politics and religion can co-exist.
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