Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

Wasn't there a story of the Buddha losing a tear, when Mara told him that he will not disapear and continue his ways? (it can be that it is just a story)

But of course, a tear naturally arises if we have dust in the eye (to use this similie on more that only the perception of vedana). How ever, a tear has the purpose to wash out the dirt.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
whynotme
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by whynotme »

Hanzze wrote:Wasn't there a story of the Buddha losing a tear, when Mara told him that he will not disapear and continue his ways? (it can be that it is just a story)

But of course, a tear naturally arises if we have dust in the eye (to use this similie on more that only the perception of vedana). How ever, a tear has the purpose to wash out the dirt.
No, I haven't read anything like that in the suttas, it is possible a legend.
What I said is that tear caused by emotion, in every sentences I talked about emotion. If tear caused by physical cause, then it doesn't count, arahants or the buddha can have this kind of tear. But is this kind of tear worth to mention by an arahant? No, definitely, no

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

It was just a try of a multilayer approach to the similie of dust in the eyes. You know, some are very attached to body and physicality and many very attached to feelings and mentality. I guess there is still dust coming along and there will be still tears to wash them away again and again. Maybe it's just that mentality and physicality is no more dismixed and wrong understood, not to speak of awarness to close the eyes when storm start to arise.

Sometimes awarness is so strong, that we even would to twinkle for hours which would easily damage our eyes.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
whynotme
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by whynotme »

Hanzze wrote:It was just a try of a multilayer approach to the similie of dust in the eyes. You know, some are very attached to body and physicality and many very attached to feelings and mentality. I guess there is still dust coming along and there will be still tears to wash them away again and again. Maybe it's just that mentality and physicality is no more dismixed and wrong understood, not to speak of awarness to close the eyes when storm start to arise.

Sometimes awarness is so strong, that we even would to twinkle for hours which would easily damage our eyes.
No matter how you mixed mental and physical things together, remember the two arrow simile? The Buddha only teachs about the destroying of the metal arrow.

IMO, don't use your awareness to judge an arahant awareness. Do you mean he as an arahant suddenly cried because of nothing? Look at the content of that story, he wept when he remembered the experience, it clearly indicates emotion. If it was physical cause then he can explain it easily, but he didn't. Instead, he used the typical story, the body cried but the mind doesn't, it clearly shows that he was not an arahant. Why do I say this? Maybe one day you will think you are an arahant but still have love and hate, and think the mind is unaffected. If you think like that, IMO, you are not even a sotapanna and so is Ajahn Maha Bua.

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

If I would be playful I would now answer: "IMO, don't use your awareness to judge an arahant awareness."

"Look at the content of that story, he wept when he remembered the experience" ahh, you talk about Ajahn Maha Bua. You might be right, but I don't know what has happened later. Some on there way to Arahantship cry even a lot and sometimes we do never hear stories after such happens and from later on.

Don't worry to much, you not on the wrong lane with your thought but it's somehow a waste of time to indentify Arahants, its good to know and be sure that there are some even not so seen.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
whynotme
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by whynotme »

Hanzze wrote:If I would be playful I would now answer: "IMO, don't use your awareness to judge an arahant awareness."

"Look at the content of that story, he wept when he remembered the experience" ahh, you talk about Ajahn Maha Bua. You might be right, but I don't know what has happened later. Some on there way to Arahantship cry even a lot and sometimes we do never hear stories after such happens and from later on.

Don't worry to much, you not on the wrong lane with your thought but it's somehow a waste of time to indentify Arahants, its good to know and be sure that there are some even not so seen.
Dear Hanzze,

I don't want to derail the thread, and I am not worried. Actually I don't know anything about Ajahn Maha Bua. If he was really an arahant and that story didn't happen, I don't care much because I just analyzed an story. If that story really happened then he was not even a sotapanna. And this kind of story shows some insight, the relation between things, cause and effect in the mind. If you can contribute to the knowledge of cause and effect then please continue, just don't fear the name of the monks.

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

Giving names and stories in reagard of "specific persons" aside "then he was not even a sotapanna" is maybe not a correct conclusion (when just based on that what was written by somebody), whymotme. A sotapanna is not free from all fetters and still has greed, harted and delusion as fuel to turn on and even such things could happen. The chain of cuase and effect is not distoyed by reaching the stream, so tanha still arises on vedana caused by contact, as there is still more or less (even subtile) "I" illusion.

(4) sensuous craving (kāma-cchanda = kāma-rāga; s. rāga),
(5) ill-will (vyāpāda = dosa, s. mūla).
(6) craving for fine material existence (rūpa-rāga),
(7) craving for immaterial existence. (arūpa-rāga),
(8) conceit (māna),
(9) restlessness (uddhacca),
(10) ignorance (avijjā).

from: ariya
still would be present for a sotapanna.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
whynotme
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by whynotme »

Of course sotapanna still has ignorance, but do you think he will kill others, kill his parents? The ignorance of sotapanna is different to a normal person, you and me, he already saw the path, he will not kill his parents which is an action lead to hell.

Do you think someone who think he is an arahant while he is not, can be a sotapanna? This is a novice mistake, a wrong viewing on the path, not a small mistake

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

I guess your thought are maybe to wide spread. We talked about tears and if a sotapanna could have such. I thought we took distance form the story and the person already. No even the killing of parents appears (which is no more possible for a sotapanna, yes)

"Do you think someone who think he is an arahant while he is not, can be a sotapanna?" Yes, as mana is still present.

"...not a small mistake" It could be violating of the Bhikkhu rules, but we are not here to judge this (a person, a being), aren't we?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by equilibrium »

whynotme wrote:
BubbaBuddhist wrote:Ajahn Maha Bua, when he was describing his experience of attaining arhantship, wept at the memory as he described the experience. This lead to detractors publicly commenting he couldn't have achieved 'true' bodhi because if he had, he wouldn't show such emotion. He said in a follow-up commentary that it was foolish to think an arhant couldn't weep. That it was the skhandas that wept, but the citta of an arhant was unaffected. Perhaps something to consider in this discussion.

BB
I don't believe in arahant who wept. The Buddha taught the standstill in front of feelings, if he wept because of emotion, then he was not arahant. Saying arahant can weep because of emotion is like saying arahant can have sexual intercourse and the mind still was unaffected because it is just only the skhandas that having sex. Emotion is cause and effect of the mind, the one who differs skhanda emotions to his responsibility is not an arahant

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When one mentions the word "believe", one must be aware of ones limitations as one does not "know".
We should not dwell in believe and to seek the truth by the teaching so we too can know what needs to be known.
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Furthermore, a sottapanna can apparently also have sexual intercourse, see Lady Kali for one example (Hemavata Sutta; Sutta Niipata 153.80) among others.

BB
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drifting cloud
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by drifting cloud »

At risk of sounding trollish, maybe the best answer to this question is to become an arahant and see what happens?

:anjali:
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by whynotme »

drifting cloud wrote:At risk of sounding trollish, maybe the best answer to this question is to become an arahant and see what happens?

:anjali:
Well, IMO, some people, not specifically to the OP, will wonder, what is the value of ending all suffering while still experiencing pain and suffering. If an arahant still has pain, what is the value of achieve arahantship?

They should know that the ending of suffering taught by the Buddha, is in fact not the ending of current suffering but the ending of the cause of suffering. Therefor current pain still exists because of the body caused by causes in the past. But for future, the cause has ceased, there will be no body to experience any pain

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Hanzze
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Post by Hanzze »

whynotme,

Who would feel pain if there is no more identification with it? Have you ever seen somebody bleeding and the thought, "Ohh, he must suffer", but as soon as you asked him, he even did not know that he bleeds. That is in case of uncounciousness out of ignorance. There is also the case of no surface (uncounciousness) out of understanding.

If you search for a sample for it, this might be useful even it is not rally correct compareable.

Or you might know shock situations, where the mind is so aware, that there is no real sensation even there are heavy wounds.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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