Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Hanzze
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:00 am

Raksha wrote:If I forcefully oppose the foolishness of beings then I have found that eventually I become a fool too. So instead I choose to see only good in them
:thumbsup: Raksha, that is great insight and wise. Neither to opposite such things, nor to support such things but wishing them the best, when you can not really help.
The critice also does not go in direction of the normal follower of this sect, even not in direction of leading layman but on those who are really in charge and would not even have the "legal" possibility to do such things, simply stepping offer the Buddha and his Dhamma-Vinaya.

But as Ajahn Fuang similary to you once said:
"When you want to teach other people to be good, you have to see how far their goodness can go. If you try to make them better than they can be, you're the one who's being stupid."
Those who are in a movie, one is not easy able to help them. There would be only a possibility if one is able to bring their teacher out of the movie. But it's good to show people who are not in a specific moie yet, what the movie is about.
santa100 wrote:Through the light of education and understanding, people will naturally know for themselves the right course of action and free themselves from the evil influence of false teachers..
Santa, your thought are well meant, but it's always a matter of the right conditions, or let me say, of the karmic situation of them. Its more natural that people run the wrong ways and it doesn't matter it they read or know the good teachings or not. Everything that would be needed in addition is here all the time, that is, was and will be never a probelm.
You just need to think on normal good aducated people in the west, very view are open to Dhamma. No think on people having not even 10% of "modern" education. There is no such thing as free-thinking, there is following what ever seems to be good.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

jameswang
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Job

Post by jameswang » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:48 am

Raksha wrote:Thankyou Hanzze for your thoughtful reply, and thankyou Bhante for your scholarship and integrity. I know that you both seek to protect the Dhamma :jedi: ...but I wonder...is there a better way?
I trust truth to be the better way. That's what Ven Gavesako's is trying to reveal about Dhammakaya. Isn't this the same as what the Buddha did when he pointed out the faults of others teachings of his time and place?

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Job

Post by jameswang » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:59 am

Hanzze wrote: :thumbsup: Raksha, that is great insight and wise. Neither to opposite such things, nor to support such things but wishing them the best, when you can not really help.
Ven Gavesako is trying to help by providing info. People who are informed would know enough to avoid. If you understand psychological manipulation well enough, you know that it's no small matter. You too are a potential victim.

Evidence of Dhammakaya as a cult of greed and delusion is ample. More people are getting sucked in and harvested. Once a person's belief is co-opted, it's hard to change. So, preventive education is important.

Ven Gavesako is doing what others here are not able and willing to do. If anyone wish to make more comments dissuading him, please learn more about Dhammakaya first.

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Kumara
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Job

Post by Kumara » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:03 am

gavesako wrote:If you know the history of the Dhammakaya controversy in Thailand, which goes back at least 20 years, this is just the latest event which stirred up a lot of public debate in Thailand this week. The previous case involved some peculiar Dhammakaya teachings, such as claiming that Nibbana is the "true self" (atta), which the eminent scholar Phra Payutto has criticized in his book "Karani Thammakai".
Is this book available in English?
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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gavesako
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Job

Post by gavesako » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:15 pm

No, only in Thai and it is quite thick.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

dhammarelax
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:44 pm

gavesako wrote:Dhammakaya leader saw and described the reincarnation of Steve Jobs! Believe it or not... :jawdrop: :thinking:

Detailed analysis in this article:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/87995/tha ... teve-jobs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Original article on Dhammakaya website:
http://www.dmc.tv/pages/en/Where-is-Ste ... art-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ajahn Paisal Visalo on possible Parajika offence of Phra Dhammachayo (in Thai)
อวดอุตริ! พระไพศาลชี้ 'สตีฟ จ็อบส์' ฉบับธรรมกาย เข้าข่ายอาบัติปาราชิก!
http://m.thairath.co.th/content/life/285205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Wat Phra Dhammakaya in Pathum Thani province on Monday stirred an internet controversy when it released an article on its website referring to the afterlife of Apple co-founder Steve Jobs, claiming the American legend has been reincarnated as a mid-level angel dwelling not far from his Apple office in a parallel world.
According to the temple’s website (http://www.dmc.tv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), the article named “Where is Steve Jobs?” was in answer to questions about Jobs’s afterlife that had been asked by a man identified as Tony Tseung, a senior engineer at Apple's headquarters in Cupertino, California.

It claimed Mr Tseung sent a letter asking Phrathepyanmahamuni (Luang Por Dhammachayo), the abbot of Wat Phra Dhammakaya, whether he knew where Jobs went after his death and how he was faring.

He said Jobs was a practitioner of Buddhism and at one point wanted to become a Buddhist monk, but failed to do it as work kept him busy.

The website said the answers to Mr Tseung’s questions resulted in knowledge gained from Phrathepyanmahamuni’s long-time practice of meditation.

The abbot claimed Jobs is now “a half Witthayathorn, half Yak (Thai word for ‘giant’), which is a mid-level angel. Witthayathorn is the term representing one of the angel types who love to seek knowledge in various sciences. Another trait of his angelic character was a hot temper, he said.

Before Jobs died, he was worried about many things such as his family and work projects, and his life after death.

Jobs is living in a big heavenly palace, the height of a six-storey building, made of white, silver metal and crystal glass, located not far from where he worked when he was alive. He has 20 servants as a result of his worldly virtue, the abbot said.

The content in the article was from a Phrathepyanmahamuni sermon that had been aired on the temple’s cable television channel Dhamma Media Channel (DMC) last week. It was intended to teach the law of karma to Dhammakaya followers, not meant to defame or insult any parties, the website explained.

The website said the article had been disseminated on many websites and social media channels and the text may have been edited, paraphrased or distorted. As a result, it urged people to use care and read the “correct” original text on its website. It also said the “Where is Steve Jobs?” article was only an individual opinion and whether to believe it was up to the audience.

Wat Phra Dhammakaya has been embroiled in controversy over its donation campaigns and claims of miracles. The temple, however, is believed to have millions of followers around the world, including many powerful Thai politicians.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/308543/null" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Temple danger clear as Jobs talk gets crazy
Sanitsuda Ekachai

Should we just dismiss it as crazy when a Buddhist monk claims he knows about the late Steve Jobs's afterlife and that Jobs's spirit is now blessed with a sacred crystal ball inside his body?

If this out-of-this-world claim came from a nobody, we could just laugh it off as a wacky idea from someone trying to use the name of a famous person to get himself some attention.

But it's definitely no laughing matter when the claim comes from the almighty abbot of the country's richest and most politically connected temple which _ despite criticisms about its grave distortions of Buddhist teachings _ is set to take control of the clergy.

If you missed Phra Dhammachayo's talk in Thai on the afterlife of Jobs and the stories about his previous lives, go to the Dhammakaya Temple's website at http://www.dmc.tv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The abbot's talk is divided into three parts: where Steve Jobs is now after his death, why he was born talented, and why he became a successful businessman in the first place.

The abbot, clad in a saffron garb that is distinctive from mainstream monks, told the audience that despite his good deeds on earth, Jobs's mind was clouded by anxiety and fear before he succumbed to cancer. This is why, he said, Jobs's new form in the afterlife is that of "a middle-class celestial male being in the category of half celestial male, half giant demon" with dark complexion, and complete with hidden fangs which will show when his famous temper takes over.

"Can you follow me?" The abbot asked this question every few minutes as he described in minute detail Jobs's celestial abode _ a sleek, hi-tech six-story building with a floating bed and a 20-strong entourage _ near his old office building.

I admit it was very hard for me follow the abbot although his followers kept on responding to him, exclaiming "oh, wow" and "yes, yes".

The first part of the talk ended with Jobs's bliss and thankfulness after receiving a stream of light and a sparkling crystal sent by a group of Dhammakaya followers into the centre of his body.

Can you follow me?

In the other two parts of his talk, the abbot told of Jobs's previous lifetimes, one in which he was a merchant who donated large amounts to an orderly, serene, well-organised temple (like Dhammakaya?) even when he did not have much money, who became one of the temple's faithful, learned meditation with a monk with special powers (like Phra Dhammachayo?) and attained wealth by always making a strong wish for it after every merit-making (like the Dhammakaya followers are told to?).

Once a target of state suspicion for its rapid growth, Dhammakaya is now enjoying support from both business and political elites as well as urban supporters who are drawn to the temple's hypnotic mixture of grandeur, a sense of modernity, tales of supernatural powers, and the promises for quick nirvana fixes that money can buy.

The clergy, pampered by Dhammakaya wealth and under the spell of nationalism, also support Dhammakaya's overseas expansion, viewing it as part of the propagation of Thai Buddhism.

The temple is also making sure that every new batch of monks is growing on Dhammakaya scholarships to build a firm foundation of support as their members continue to climb up the ecclesiastical ladder.

According to Dhammakaya defector Mano Laohavanich, formerly Mettananando Bhikkhu, the threat doesn't stem only from the abuse of Buddhist teachings on giving for commercial gain. It also affects the very core of Buddhism by turning it into a theological religion.

In his article "Esoteric Teachings of Wat Phra Dhammakaya," he discusses the belief among the temple's inner core members that the abbot is the reincarnation of the "Creator" who is leading an army of the Sons of Light to fight the Sons of Darkness in a cosmic battle to save humankind.

It's just getting weirder and weirder, isn't it?

I just can't imagine what the future holds for Thai Buddhism when the clergy is under Dhammakaya's full control.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... gets-crazy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:spy:
How does this differ from knowing the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama? I tend to take seriously what the Buddha said and its clear that monks with that ability can see where beings are reborn, I am expressing this not as a support to the specific tradition in general but only to this particular point.

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Last edited by dhammarelax on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:06 pm

dhammarelax wrote:Who does this differ from knowing the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama?
I've heard that for an infant candidate to get the Dalai Lama job he has to be able to identify objects that he owned in his former life that are mixed together with objects that he didn't own. So there is an empirical test of sorts; it probably wouldn't satisfy James Randi, but it's better than nothing. By contrast, the claims of Dhammachaiyo are made solely on his own authority and gullibly accepted by Dhammakaya followers without any evidence whatsoever.

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by cooran » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:13 pm

Official statement on issue of reincarnation of Dalai Lama
http://dalailama.com/messages/statement ... ncarnation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:45 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:Who does this differ from knowing the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama?
I've heard that for an infant candidate to get the Dalai Lama job he has to be able to identify objects that he owned in his former life that are mixed together with objects that he didn't own. So there is an empirical test of sorts; it probably wouldn't satisfy James Randi, but it's better than nothing. By contrast, the claims of Dhammachaiyo are made solely on his own authority and gullibly accepted by Dhammakaya followers without any evidence whatsoever.
Hi Bhante

Yes but the point in question is not directly the confirmation of the identity of either the Dalai Lama or Mr. Jobs but the initial finding of them, how do they find the candidates to try the object selection in first place, using supernatural powers. So in there lies the similarity.

Having said that and abruptly changing the subject I would like to ask what would be the best way to convince an ardent follower of the Dhammakaya to try a different practice, someone I know is under their influence and after reading things like:


From http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Its elementary meditation teaching is a combination of a simple mediation technique which comprises visualization of a crystal ball or a crystal Buddha image at the level of 2 finger-breaths above the navel around the middle part of the body, and the use of the universal mantra: sammā-arahaṃ."

"When the newcomer has gained sufficient faith in the leadership of the wat, s/he will be introduced to a higher level of the teaching of Vijjā Dhammakāya where the conventional knowledge of Buddhism becomes almost insignificant. Personal enlightenment is no longer the goal of each person’s life. Nibbāna is not the final destiny of life. Through the knowledge of Dhammakāya, the inner body of enlightenment or the True Self of each person, there is another higher abode and bliss that is superior to nibbāna."

"Unlike members of other schools of Buddhism in Thailand who are trained be humble, detached from social phenomena, and always ready to let go of any suffering and pain in life, followers of Wat Phra Dhammakāya are trained to be proud of themselves and to sacrifice anything in their lives for their leaders and the goal of the wat. Being honored as a part of the Army of the Light, they themselves are fighters who have to win every battle for the sake of the Master no matter how hard the assignment. On the contrary, they will be punished harshly if they fail."

"Respect for the commands of the leader is the core of Wat Phra Dhammakāya’s ethos. Such control is neither coincidental nor a part of Buddhism monasticism in Thailand. It is rooted in another frequently told myth of the organizational structure, the prophecy of the late abbot of Wat Paknam Bhasicharoen, who, according to the Venerable Dhammajayo, took Adolf Hitler and as one of his greatest personal icons. According to this story of Refined Dharma, an ideal world would have resulted from the victory of Nazi Germany in World War II. The Abbot of Wat Phra Dhammakāya has been inspired by the success of the Third Reich; it has become the blueprint of for the massive ceremonies and organization of the wat."
"It is strange that for over forty years of the community, the Abbot has never taught anyone how to wage war against the Māras; despite the fact that this is the task he claims as his primary duty. Apparently, the Abbot is the Great Master of Dhammakāya meditation who has kept the ultimate technique of meditation for himself."

I am worried and want to do something, if you know some simple arguments would be great.

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:31 pm

dhammarelax wrote:Having said that and abruptly changing the subject I would like to ask what would be the best way to convince an ardent follower of the Dhammakaya to try a different practice,
I only wish I knew. As it is I've no idea at all what things are effective in freeing people from mental enslavement to this ghastly outfit. Perhaps the best person to consult on this would be Mano Laohavanich (the former monk Mettānando) who used to be quite a big shot in the organization but is now very critical of it.

He has two Facebook pages, but I don't know which (if either) is current...

https://www.facebook.com/mano.laohavanich

https://www.facebook.com/manomettanando.laohavanich

dhammarelax
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:46 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:Having said that and abruptly changing the subject I would like to ask what would be the best way to convince an ardent follower of the Dhammakaya to try a different practice,
I only wish I knew. As it is I've no idea at all what things are effective in freeing people from mental enslavement to this ghastly outfit. Perhaps the best person to consult on this would be Mano Laohavanich (the former monk Mettānando) who used to be quite a big shot in the organization but is now very critical of it.

He has two Facebook pages, but I don't know which (if either) is current...

https://www.facebook.com/mano.laohavanich

https://www.facebook.com/manomettanando.laohavanich
Hi Bhante

Thanks for the links but I am not a fakebook user, have you come across of his email anywhere? I will have to do some thinking on this, so far the main weakness I see in their thought world is probably the atta business but is going to be difficult to speak at this level with my friend, although very committed to them, it seems that knowledge of the Nikayas is almost null. And has mentioned to have some known some people to actually see this body of light that never gets old in their meditation.

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:05 am

dhammarelax wrote:Thanks for the links but I am not a fakebook user, have you come across of his email anywhere?
No, I'm afraid not.

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Kumara
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Kumara » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:00 am

dhammarelax wrote:what would be the best way to convince an ardent follower of the Dhammakaya to try a different practice, someone I know is under their influence and after reading things like:

From http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's typical of a religious cult, but don't tell your friend that. A cultist doesn't know he's in a cult. When he knows he's already out of it, though much still remains to be done to recover.
I am worried and want to do something, if you know some simple arguments would be great.
Arguments can't convince a co-opted mind. If you want to help, you need lots of understanding first. I suggest this site: https://freedomofmind.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by samseva » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:31 am

dhammarelax wrote:I will have to do some thinking on this, so far the main weakness I see in their thought world is probably the atta business but is going to be difficult to speak at this level with my friend, although very committed to them, it seems that knowledge of the Nikayas is almost null. And has mentioned to have some known some people to actually see this body of light that never gets old in their meditation.

smile all the time
dhammarelax
This might be of some use to you.
http://www.culteducation.com/group/1256 ... versy.html

Plus Dhammachayo's possible pārājika offense accusation by Sangharaja Somdet Nyanasamvara Thera and Ajahn Visalo.

ieee23
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by ieee23 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:25 pm

I would be more interested finding the reincarnation of Dr. Ian Stevenson. It would be fun to interview him to see how his opinions have changed :).
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

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