Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Polar Bear
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:50 pm

I am speechless :toilet:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:20 am

I read in the news today that the Unification Church (aka "the moonies") is losing it's religious nature and morphing into a business enterprise primarily as a result of the recent death of the Rev. Moon it's founder.....I guess this is making room for the Dhammakaya people to bloom into the next big religious phenom....I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

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gavesako
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by gavesako » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:19 pm

The stairway to heaven is all booked up


You need not be a strict Buddhist to find the story of Steve Jobs' life after death very bizarre.

According to the Dhammakaya sect, the late co-founder of Apple has been reincarnated as a mid-level angel and is now living in a six-storey building in a heavenly atmosphere. Such a plot would not stir up controversy had it been published as fiction or made into a Hollywood film, but it sparked a debate when it was aimed at teaching the law of karma.

Who are we to judge Jobs on whether or not he should be in heaven? In Thailand, Apple fans have already named him Sasada (Prophet) Jobs in honour of his contribution to the world. But reincarnation as an angel is another thing. Like other top executives, Jobs was no angel when it came to cutthroat business competition. Even after his death, his company won a case against South Korea's Samsung and is engaged in a number of other lawsuits. We don't have to think who is holier than who in this matter as the bottom line is that, in the real world, where Jobs once lived, it was hard to let a day go by without committing a sin.

If you need to put Jobs in any category of heaven, he would conveniently fit into the one illustrated by Dhammakaya. The sect, unlike mainstream Buddhism, teaches a unique path of how to climb the ladder to heaven. Their followers are inspired by a different doctrine. They say that you must donate more to get more, whereas the Lord Buddha described karma as the law of cause and effect. And good karma doesn't really involve anything commercial. It is clearly put in the Tipitaka, a story about a man called Makamanop who needs not invent anything. He used his feet to clear the ground so that others could stand on it too. He was pushed and then repeated the same act without anger. He was reincarnated as an angel too.

None of us can prove if heaven exists so let's put good karma into perspective. Good karma, if judged by donations and directly linked to Dhammakaya doctrine, will not be calculated in the equation for someone like Makamanop or the volunteers who helped out during the flood crisis. How about those who make donations to needy children? Will they become angels after death?

What if a person donated millions to Dhammakaya by using money from corruption? Will that person go straight to heaven or hell? If you use the law of karma of cause and effect, corruption means you steal money from taxpayers, and that causes bad karma. The Buddha described karma like a chain of cause and effect, so there is no way of avoiding an end result if there is an action. No one can write off bad karma simply by doing good things.

Likewise, the co-founder of Apple gave us the pleasure of his inventions but along the path he was attacked as a businessman who protected the best interests of his business, leaving the burden on consumers. There were other not-so-good karmic acts along the way, which would not convince the average Buddhist that he could be reincarnated as an angel straight away.

However, we should not be worried that dhamma teaching using Jobs as a model will affect society as a whole; so far it has been heavily criticised, especially as people are able to do so freely on the social media.

Dhammakaya is no stranger to controversy, as it has been subject to criticism all along, especially regarding its donate-more-get-more campaigns, its different teaching and its claims of miracles. Jobs is only a tool to encourage the sect's followers to pursue success and thus have the ability to give more.

What is scarier than the materialistic and commercial-based teaching inside Dhammakaya is the new trend of trying to write off sin by doing good. Corrupt politicians, criminals on the run and bad wealthy people try to build big temples inside and outside Thailand. Without saying it, they secretly hope it will pave the way to heaven and people will forget about their wrongdoing or criminal acts. If the majority of Buddhists and monks continue their passive role and never put thing rights, we will soon end up with lots of lavish temples built by wealthy Thais, and each temple will be filled with bank notes and distorted teaching.

And if those people with big temples also end up in heaven, its hell for us - all the loyal citizens and taxpayers of the world. Maybe we should just ignore dhamma and start earning a lot of money before heaven is fully booked by those who cheated us.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 89518.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:broke:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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UhBaUnTaUh
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by UhBaUnTaUh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:41 am

They are a commercial company, not theravada.
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Ben
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Ben » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:53 am

Hi Bhante,
gavesako wrote:The stairway to heaven is all booked up


You need not be a strict Buddhist to find the story of Steve Jobs' life after death very bizarre.

According to the Dhammakaya sect, the late co-founder of Apple has been reincarnated as a mid-level angel and is now living in a six-storey building in a heavenly atmosphere...
Indeed. I remember earlier this year watching a humorous youtube video of three young people interrogating the 'siri' function of the new iphone 4S with questions such as "where is steve jobs, now?". The repeated questioning of the siri function regarding Steve Jobs led to its, a'hem, "emotional" breakdown.

As for someone within the Dhammakaya sect claiming to know the rebirth of the late Steve Jobs - despite it being a flagrant attention-seeking exercise, it does damage to the reputation of the Dhamma within the community.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by gavesako » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:37 am

UhBaUnTaUh wrote:They are a commercial company, not theravada.
This can be seen for example from this "Get Rich Quick" amulet produced by the Dhammakaya temple.

(Because of the UFO shape of their main temple near Bangkok, they are also known as the Flying Saucer Cult.)

:alien:
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Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by UhBaUnTaUh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:33 am

^

The word in the amulet mean "Be rich quickly".

Note : I don't wanna explain about them anymore, because I want to be keep my mine in Kusalakammapada Number 5. However, they are sattas who buddha taught us to make Brhamviha-ra to them, too.

Although, I post in this topic to tell some truth about them that maybe good for anyone who don't have any information to determine.

We can love them, and should be pitying them, but we should know the truth of they, too.
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by gavesako » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:02 pm

The latest development:

Fringe group must respect wishes of local people

The Dhammakaya Buddhist sect will have to think twice about its plans to appropriate land that is considered to be a public amenity by northeastern villagers.

Without the consent and buy-in of local people, Dhammakaya, a controversial Thai Buddhist sect, is unlikely to be able to set up a successful operation in northeastern Sakon Nakhon province. Dhammakaya was reportedly close to concluding a deal with local land officers to claim ownership of 85 rai at Don Sawan. It planned to set up a new branch in the province, but is facing strong protests from local people.

Prompted by the Sakon Nakhon Mayor Komut Teekathananond, several thousand citizens have signed up to protest against the transfer of land ownership to the sect. In addition, many in the province feel uncomfortable with some of the practices of the sect, which allegedly has a policy of encouraging its followers to make substantial and regular cash donations. Recently the sect's preaching caused controversy after it "analysed" the afterlife of Apple founder Steve Jobs. Critics say the sect was simply capitalising on the late electronics guru's fame in order to encourage its followers to hand over more money. One telling photo showed a protester in Sakon Nakhon holding a sign reading, "We don't want UFOs here", alluding to the architectural shape of the memorial hall of the sect's headquarters in Pathum Thani province.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 90262.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:alien:

More reports and images from the Thai media:
http://2bangkok.com/forum/showthread.ph ... tion/page4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Slenderman » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:06 am

Ben wrote:Hi Bhante,
gavesako wrote:The stairway to heaven is all booked up


You need not be a strict Buddhist to find the story of Steve Jobs' life after death very bizarre.

According to the Dhammakaya sect, the late co-founder of Apple has been reincarnated as a mid-level angel and is now living in a six-storey building in a heavenly atmosphere...
Indeed. I remember earlier this year watching a humorous youtube video of three young people interrogating the 'siri' function of the new iphone 4S with questions such as "where is steve jobs, now?". The repeated questioning of the siri function regarding Steve Jobs led to its, a'hem, "emotional" breakdown.

As for someone within the Dhammakaya sect claiming to know the rebirth of the late Steve Jobs - despite it being a flagrant attention-seeking exercise, it does damage to the reputation of the Dhamma within the community.
kind regards,

Ben
I agree 100 % with this. It is damaging, and the guy really has no way of knowing.

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Raksha » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:30 am

Dear Ven. Gavesako,
It's not fair to take potshots at the Dhammakaya Temple :alien: because essentially they mean well, and so everything will work out fine in the end, because good intentions have good results. I believe their legacy will be a completely reinvigorated Thai Buddhism. Instead of indolent, uneducated monks we will have multilingual, graduate monks skilled in satellite TV broadcasting. Instead of passivity and apathy we will have a tradition that is strong and not afraid to stand up for itself. Let's not forget that previously, apart from the odd forest saint, Thai Buddhism was in serious decline.
:namaste: R.

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:40 am

multilingual, graduate monks skilled in satellite TV broadcasting.
Was that an advice of the Buddha and would that be possible without violating the Vinaya, not to think on the harming caused by "Missionary in the Name of..."

:alien: might be founded in pity but compassion without wisdom is hurtful for many and at least it show that there is very less faith in the Buddha Sasana but a pride build up on tanha and not compassion at all. Every movement (political, religious...) beside the Dhamma-Vinaya, has failed and caused much pain.

Raksha, rather to feel touched, try to think where the different between Dhamma-Vinaya and such illusions could be. No need to get hurt, but a very need to understand. Which of cause is somehow difficult if we have a believe in "I" or something like a "soul".

It is maybe useful to think what money and its use actually means. Decline is natural when we leave it the natural way, and Samsara does not change if we make dramtics in costumes of the saints out of it.

How every, it is really nice of you and well thought to remember some on the danger of critic even it might be a very needed critic.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by gavesako » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:34 am

Raksha wrote:Dear Ven. Gavesako,
It's not fair to take potshots at the Dhammakaya Temple :alien: because essentially they mean well, and so everything will work out fine in the end, because good intentions have good results. I believe their legacy will be a completely reinvigorated Thai Buddhism. Instead of indolent, uneducated monks we will have multilingual, graduate monks skilled in satellite TV broadcasting. Instead of passivity and apathy we will have a tradition that is strong and not afraid to stand up for itself. Let's not forget that previously, apart from the odd forest saint, Thai Buddhism was in serious decline.
:namaste: R.
I take your point about the declining state of the Thai Sangha which often does not seem that inspiring and the standards are pretty low. Compare this article:

"Beginnings of Dhammakaya in Isan"
http://isaan-life.blogspot.com/2012/09/ ... ndbut.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the other hand, I think your hope for a "brighter future" with Dhammakaya is naively optimistic, not realizing the danger behind the impressive facade:

3.7. Soon after Ānanda had left, Māra the Evil One came to the Lord, stood to one side, and said: 'Lord, may the Blessed Lord now attain final Nibbāna, may the Well-Farer now attain final Nibbāna. Now is the time for the Blessed Lord's final Nibbāna. Because the Blessed Lord has said this: "Evil One, I will not take final Nibbāna till I have monks and disciples who are accomplished, trained, skilled, learned, knowers of the Dhamma, trained in conformity with the Dhamma, cor­rectly trained and walking in the path of the Dhamma, who will pass on what they have gained from their Teacher, teach it, declare it, establish it, expound it, analyze it, make it clear; till they shall be able by means of the Dhamma to refute false teachings that have arisen, and teach the Dhamma of won­drous effect."40

http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitak ... -days.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are plenty of well-researched analyses of the Dhammakaya doctrines which are distorting the Theravada teachings in some crucial aspects. Anyone who is familiar with the Pali Tipitaka texts would be able to see that for themselves (even though Dhammakaya tries to prove that their doctrines are really based on the original texts, though with little success).

However, what is more worrying and a reason for concern is their drive for domination of the Thai Sangha through fostering strong links with influential politicians and business people, and bribing their way to control even the Sangha hierarchy itself so that they can be presented as a new kind of "elite" and model for the rest of the country. They are indeed very well organized and impressively trained, but in a scary way reminiscent of some militaristic movements that we have seen in the past.

They are also trying to dominate the Thai missionary activities abroad: see this new logo of "Wat Europe" network -- their umbrella organization which is supposed to facilitate the propagation of Thai Buddhism in European countries, with the help of Swedish government apparently.
http://wateurope.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Hanzze
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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:51 am

Wellcome in the lands of illusion :hello: just be sure that you do not cling on anything.
A man searching for fruit climbs a tree to eat his fill and to stuff his garments with fruit to take home. While he is there, another man searching for fruit comes along. The second man can't climb the tree but he has an axe, so he chops the tree down. If the first man doesn't quickly get out of the tree, he may break an arm or a leg, or even die.

This simile shows the perils of looking for true happiness in the wrong place: in sensual pleasures. If your happiness depends on anything other people can take away from you, you're putting yourself in danger. As the Buddha notes, we hope for happiness in sensual pleasures not because they've ever really satisfied us but because we can't imagine any other escape from pain and suffering. If we allowed ourselves to believe that there is another alternative, we'd be more willing to question our strong faith in our cravings and attachments, more willing to look for that alternative and give it a try.

A person searching for milk tries to get milk out of a cow by twisting its horn. Another person searching for milk tries to get milk out of the cow by pulling at its udder.

from Faith In Awakening
...and sometimes its even good to do not disturb somebody who is twisting horns.

I wounder how much sucess they will have with such a flag...
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SEAsian is very inspired by Chinese samples of power as well as happy about the money flow. And they learn really fast, also from the big brothers of Compassion.

But all in all, maybe a great second wave after Tibetans try... 1+1= not 0

Now we soon have the offical Web-site of "Thai Buddhism". If I would like to cry I would love to cry. People will love it, that's for sure.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by Raksha » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:20 pm

Thankyou Hanzze for your thoughtful reply, and thankyou Bhante for your scholarship and integrity. I know that you both seek to protect the Dhamma :jedi: ...but I wonder...is there a better way?
My 'naive optimism' is deliberate, because I believe it serves better. If I forcefully oppose the foolishness of beings then I have found that eventually I become a fool too. So instead I choose to see only good in them :console:.
:candle: :buddha1: :candle:

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Re: Dhammakaya leader 'knows' the reincarnation of Steve Jobs!

Post by santa100 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Another effective way beside maintaining the transparency within any Buddhist organization is to encourage common folks to read and learn more about the Dhamma. People can only be deceived when they're ignorant. But time has changed. The internet revolution has made the Teaching widely and freely accessable to everyone. And the more they read and learn, the less likely they will be deceived by false teaching from false teachers. Sites like accesstoinsight or tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page are greatly valuable. The Thai Sangha should make every effort to translate them into the Thai language and open it up to everyone. Through the light of education and understanding, people will naturally know for themselves the right course of action and free themselves from the evil influence of false teachers..

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