"th" in Pali

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11744
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by DNS » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:05 am

Dhammanando wrote: Best wishes,
'd̪ʰʌm-mʌː-'nʌn-d̪əʊ 'bʰik-kʰʊ
Oh crap. This is why Pali is so hard for me to learn. :rolleye:

:tongue:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:21 am

Now you are just showing off.

I know hothouse is not the best, but it works
Dhammanando wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, in that it is not two distinct syllables, but focusing on the t-h sound is workable, which is a lot more than one can say for the IPA, an exercise in the severely arcane.
I think there are plenty of other non-arcane methods that are better than 'hothouse', 'madhouse' etc. For example:

th: like 'tea' but with the tip of the tongue striking the back of the top teeth rather than the palate.

ch: like Bob Marley's pronunciation of the c in 'Caribbean' when he sings Buffalo Soldier.

jh: like Linton Kwesi Johnson's pronunciation of the g in 'gather' when he's reciting his poem Di Great Insohreckshan

bh: as the waiter in your local Indian restaurant pronounces the bh in bhindi masala.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:22 am

TheDhamma wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: Best wishes,
'd̪ʰʌm-mʌː-'nʌn-d̪əʊ 'bʰik-kʰʊ
Oh crap. This is why Pali is so hard for me to learn. :rolleye:

:tongue:
It is not that hard.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16451
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:29 am

Dhammanando wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I think there are plenty of other non-arcane methods that are better than 'hothouse', 'madhouse' etc. For example:
...
ch: like Bob Marley's pronunciation of the c in 'Caribbean' when he sings Buffalo Soldier.
Venerable, where do you find these gems?

Perhaps you can comment on Joe Strummer's pronunciation in "London Calling" ("London calling, yes I was there TOO, and you know what they said? Well some of it was TRUE!")

Metta
Mike

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4149
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:37 am

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Venerable, where do you find these gems?
Some of it's from past postings to a thread on Pali palatal consonants on another forum and some is what I learned when studying phonetics with Pétur Knútsson at the University of Iceland. A lot of the IPA transcribing tests Knútsson set us were based on pop songs and suchlike.
Perhaps you can comment on Joe Strummer's pronunciation in "London Calling" ("London calling, yes I was there TOO, and you know what they said? Well some of it was TRUE!")
I'm afraid I don't recall how his pronunciation went. :smile:

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

serg_o
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Russia, Zhukovsky

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by serg_o » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:30 am

th: like 'tea' but with the tip of the tongue striking the back of the top teeth rather than the palate.
Fine! It's just like in Russian so in this case I don't need to learn anything new. :)
Theravada, theravada, theravada...

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11744
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by DNS » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote: It is not that hard.
Thanks tilt,

I know, I think it mostly has to do with putting in at least 15 minutes per day. I find that if I work on my lessons and then put them aside for more than a week, then I have to go back to the beginning. I just need to adjust the time management and make sure I do at least 15 minutes per day.

:coffee:

User avatar
fig tree
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:25 am

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by fig tree » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:57 am

TheDhamma wrote: I think it has to do with incorrect spellings from the original translations from Asian languages to English;
The fact that in English we use "th" for what we do is the product of an interesting series of historical accidents: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciat ... English_th.
TheDhamma wrote: Pronunciations are not my forté.
The musical term pronounced like "forté" is spelled "forte" and means "loud". The other word spelled "forte" that means "strong point" was pronounced like "fort" until people began confusing it with the other one. :clap:

Fig Tree

User avatar
Dhammabodhi
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:25 pm
Location: New Delhi, India

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by Dhammabodhi » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:34 pm

Thank you Ajahn for the correction and explanations. I realised another good word which mimicks the Indic 'th' could be 'Thai'.

Metta,
Dhammabodhi
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16451
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: "th" in Pali

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:55 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:Thank you Ajahn for the correction and explanations. I realised another good word which mimicks the Indic 'th' could be 'Thai'.
Yes.

I'm going a little off topic here, but having pulled out my chanting books to check out the Thai spellings I thought I should share it.
For the technically minded, the Thai character for "Th" in "Thai" and the one used in Thai-Pali for the "th" in "Tathagata" both have the same sound but different tone rules. So the second syllable "thaa" will come out as a rising whereas"Thai" is pronounced with a middle tone. As far as I understand, Indic languages such as Pali don't have tones, but SE Asian and Chinese dialects do, so the "musical" chanting by Thai people e.g. http://www.forestmeditation.com/audio/audio.html, isn't in the Pali but in their language.

Mike

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests